TP Grievances (SPOILERS)

I've nearly completed TP in about 35 hours, but I'm fighting Gandondorf now on horseback and my batteries went out.. damn. So, I'll do it tomorrow. All in all, presentation was nice, graphics were good (I really thought they were artistically beautiful), but I have a fairly large list of grievances:

First, the gameplay is CONTRIVED. I know this is the same as in other Zelda games, but it seems to be much more in TP, so I felt it to be much more unbearable. This kind of goes along with the fact that there are few options to choose from in the game, forcing players in one direction. First, this directional, linear guiding is nice because you don't really get lost on what's next.. but it's boring as hell. Also, possibly along with this too, there wasn't nearly enough to do between dungeons. The reason why this game was so short (as people are now complaining about) is because it takes literally minutes (some of the time, not always) to go from finishing one dungeon and starting another. The dungeons, likewise, were not amazing long nor difficult. I don't have a problem with this, succinct and sweet work well. It's simply a good explanation for the general shortness of the game. My main grievance is simply the in-between time was not utizilized well at all. For example. Many sidequests in OoT were necessary to initiate, if not complete, in order to move on (such as getting the guard to Death Mountain the keaton mask. This, in turn, starts a sidequest. Or, how about getting the hook shot from Dampe). There are many examples from OoT. TP saw this, but not NEARLY as much. Yeah, there are sidequest (many from what I HEAR, haha), but unless you go searching for them, you won't find them. Many times I was thinking that I'd eventually need a big wallet because I would need to buy a necessary item, or would need to do this so I could do this, etc. However, it simply wasn't necessary. TP requires little out of your way. Almost far TOO linear. Sometimes making a game shorter but making the things that one CAN do more expansive is a better strategy, a strategy clearly NOT adopted in TP.

There is a DISPARITY between the different progressions within the game. How do I explain this? After visiting one place or completing one objective, you'll never see it again, nor will you have a reason. I haven't been to Ordon village since I got the iron boots. I'm rarely in Kakariko village for any reason, I've been to Zora's domain just a few times, and Snowpeak once, etc. OoT and MM didnt see this because of their use of time and additional iniation of sidequests. Everything was kinda interconnected. Best way to describe TP is a lack of ORGANICISM, lack of interconnection of the whole and lack of fluidity within these elements.

A lack of DYNAMICISM. OoT and MM cities were simply more interesting. I think clocktown is probably the best Zelda city made. This includes both its layout and people. OoT Kakariko is pretty close, but its more of a village anyway. In TP Castle Town, I feel about as much involvement as the Castle Town from OoT (which, I'll admit, wasnt that great). The game designers admitted that OoT Castle Town was rushed. Part of the dynamicism of the people in MM has to do with the three-day cycle, which means less people to interact with (opposed to TP) but those people are doing a hell of a lot more, and are scheduled according to the days. It would have been great to see this interaction implented in TP somehow. Every TP city/village sucked. I mean, doesn't more than a bomb dealer and a shaman live in Kakariko village? Where is goron city? Do they all live in the mine or outdoors? VERY LITTLE is accounted for, and this accountability ties in with the realistic-ness (?) of the game.

A lack of REALISTIC characters and events. This goes along with the boringness of the people. Hyrule Castle just got covered in a giant glowing diamond (or whatever it was), and no body says anything? Even the guards are like... eh, nobody can go to the castle now. There are many things to comment in this regard.

Last, a few tidbits. Using wolf link wasn't very fun, there needed to be a type of musical instrument (especially to call Epona). I thought it was great that you get the horse call at about the time you have NO use for your horse, and teleporting everywhere is all you use. Snowpeak sucked (I say it again), Hyrule field sucked (it was just a big mass of nothing TO DO) Gerudo Desert sucked, going in and out of lake Hylia via a frickin canon sucked (how do other people get there?.. REALISTIC) I bring up the realistic aspect because of an interview with the top designer claiming that TWW was designed in that way (and it was). However, TP wasn't. If anyone remembers the interview, try to find it.

STORY: I thought MIDNA was retarded, and again, it was contrived.

Please, this a GRIEVANCE thread. So, post your grievances. If you just say "you're retarded for nothing liking TP its such a great game you suck hahahaha lol im gonna play it right now" please don't post. There are also plenty of good things to say about TP and I will later.

Nothing to do inbetween dungeons? I'm sick and bored at home, so let's compare!

OoT - Deku tree: find sword and buy shield

TP - Forest temple: spend 3 days in Ordon village, Hyrule Sewers, Get Sword and Shield, clear twilight.

OoT - Dodongo's cavern: Meet Malon, Meet zelda, Get Keaton Mask, Learn saria's song

TP - Goron Mines: Fix bridge, Clear twilight, Seize Epona, go back to Ordon village, Wrestle, Save Colin, Wrestle again.

Oot - Lord Jabu Jabu: Go to zora's domain, get bottle, return to zora's domain
TP - Lakebed Temple: Go trough twilight, find ilia, go to lake hylia, fly over zora's river, climb u to zora's throne hall, go back to death mountain, go back to zora domain to melt ice, clear twilight, go back to castle town, guide Telma and Ilia to Kakariko village, Get zora armor

OoT - Forest Temple: Get mastersword, get Hookshot, go trough Lost woods
Tp - Arbiters ground: Turn back into wolf, go trough larger hyrule sewers, meet zelda, go to faron woods, clear sacred grove, solve guardians puzzle, get master sword, Meet Telma, Go to lake hylia, Travel trough Gerudodessert/Bulbin Camp.

OoT - Fire Temple: Go to death mountain, get fire tunic
TP - Snowpeak Ruins: Go to Snowpeak to get drawing, go to zora prince, catch reekfish, climb snowpeak ruins, snowboard back down.

OoT - Water Temple: Go to zora'd domain, clear ice cavern/get boots, get zora tunic
TP - Temple Of Time: Clear Sacred grove again, Open Timegate

OoT - Shadow Temple: Learn song of storms, Bottom of thewell/get eye of truth
TP - Sky Temple: travel to kakariko, get ilia's memory back, go to hidden village, receive sky book, restore domion rod powers, Find missing Letters in Sky book, return to kakariko, go to lake hylia

OoT - Spirit Temple: Clear Gerudo Valley, travel trough haunted wastelands
TP - Palace of Twilight: Travel back to arbiters grounds

OoT - Ganons Castle: go to temple of time
TP - Hyrule Castle: Go to Hyrule Castle

So altough granted that they got a bit lazy, or uninspired perhaps, towards the end, overal you do a crapload more between temples then you did in OoT. Which makes me wonder why on earth you feel like you do more in OoT during the main quest. What I wrote down is pure facts, there's no way arround it.

As for sidequests and minigames, there's a decent amount in TP:

Fishing
Zora river ride
Zora river flight
Goat herding
Snowpeak snowboarding
STAR game
Collecting Bugs
Collecting Poe's
Malo Mart

It's not that much less compared to OoT, or MM when you really think about it, it's just that the ones in OoT and MM we're more memorable, and a bit better in some cases.

I do agree on a lot of other things you said though, Why there isn't a path down to lake Hylia, God knows why. Same goes for why on earth they give you the horse reed at pretty much the end of the game. Towns aren't that bad, though it would have been much better if kakariko would become more populated along the main quest, and yeah, goron "city", Huge dissapointment. Castle town was good, but needed more houses you could enter.

Not liking the wolf gameplay or Midna, well, that's a personal opinion

So besides the things to do inbetween i mostly agree with you. I feel like they started out really well but got lost halfway the game. My main complaint would be that the world doesn't feel alive enough.

good point forgetreality, I also felt the world half-dead, a big big thing just happened with all persons around and only one notices.

The Twilight Pyramid-like that covered the castle, no one notices, except the goron in the balcony, that's ridiculous!

One of my favorite mini-games in TP is the sumo wrestling.

I missed the kokiris and gerudos (Ganondorf doesn't count), the magic armor is awesome, but it's effect is...stupid, one hit -50 rupees!?
Although, it's vital to beat the cave of ordeals.

I think the reason:

Why OoT feels bigger than TP?

In OoT no warp ability= + game hours
In TP warp ability= - game hours

In ocarina there were more minigames and bigger structures you could enter
example: houses, hotels, etc.

But when I saw the ending, the only ending owned OoT, I mean:

OoT= Ganondorf sealed
TP= Ganondorf dies and Triforce abondons him

I felt the beginning section of the game, up through the first three dungeons, was brilliant. The first three dungeons are always "guided" in this way, and they took the opportunity to introduce a much more involved storyline than any other Zelda game I've played.

After the Lakebed Temple, though, everything sort of fell apart. The method they used to restrict the order in which you play the final three dungeons was quite contrived. "Oh, you can't go there yet because you need to trigger a cutscene and get a letter." Please.

I wouldn't have minded the railroading so much if the last dungeons actually got progressively more difficult, or more interesting, but they didn't. I was especially disappointed with the City in the Sky, especially after all the hype Shad had given it---there wasn't even a city there! Just a very linear dungeon filled with weak overworld enemies. I expected at least some sort of town up there, and some impressive architecture as a testament to the supposed technological superiority of the Oocca. But the Oocca struck me more like the Mooninites, claiming superiority but really just a joke.

I also agree that after the first three dungeons, there wasn't enough to do in the overworld. It was just a formula...warp back to Castle Town, be greeted by the mailman, learn that you have to pick another letter up at the bar, go off to the new area. I did think it was annoying that you don't get the horse call until you don't really need it...why didn't they put some horse grass in the area east of the Castle (west in GC), considering that was the most common area to be starting from after getting information at the bar? There is horse grass everywhere in the game except the most logical place...

Also, I did find it odd that they went through all the trouble to make Hyrule Castle clearly visible from every area in the game, and yet none of the NPCs anywhere seems to notice that it's encased in a giant, yellow crystal. Maybe Ganondorf captures Princess Zelda so often that this is business as usual...

Also...

- Sumo wrestling was kinda cool. Why didn't they make a minigame of it after beating Goron Mines? I tried talking to all the Gorons in the council room, and also going back and talking to the mayor of Ordon, and trying to read everything around the sumo room, but it seems that there is no way you can sumo wrestle again, even if not to actually win anything (but come on now, a sumo battle with the Goron king after you save him is a dead obvious way to hide a Piece of Heart...).

- Having Hyrule Field arranged in a big circle of interconnected fields and pathways is practically begging to have a Great Race on horseback, after you fix Eldin Bridge (and clear some other roadblocks). Maybe it should happen after clearing the rocks outside the south gate of Castletown, since accomplishing that doesn't seem to be good for anything else.

- Are Bomblings actually useful for anything? At least in OoT there was one area where you actually needed to use a Bombchu (in the Spirit Temple). But in TP, we don't even have Bombling Bowling, despite the Snooty Shopkeepers' claim that Bomblings are very popular.

- No shooting gallery? Are you kidding? I did think target practice with Malo and Talo was cool, but that was a one-time affair.

In a game so lacking in minigames, these are all pretty glaring omissions...

And lastly, I think the dungeon bosses could have been more difficult. In previous games, I expected to need a potion or two to survive most bosses. Not so in TP...I would barely even get hit most of the time.

Originally Posted by forgetreality

Nothing to do inbetween dungeons? I'm sick and bored at home, so let's compare!

OoT - Deku tree: find sword and buy shield

TP - Forest temple: spend 3 days in Ordon village, Hyrule Sewers, Get Sword and Shield, clear twilight.

OoT - Dodongo's cavern: Meet Malon, Meet zelda, Get Keaton Mask, Learn saria's song

TP - Goron Mines: Fix bridge, Clear twilight, Seize Epona, go back to Ordon village, Wrestle, Save Colin, Wrestle again.

Oot - Lord Jabu Jabu: Go to zora's domain, get bottle, return to zora's domain
TP - Lakebed Temple: Go trough twilight, find ilia, go to lake hylia, fly over zora's river, climb u to zora's throne hall, go back to death mountain, go back to zora domain to melt ice, clear twilight, go back to castle town, guide Telma and Ilia to Kakariko village, Get zora armor

OoT - Forest Temple: Get mastersword, get Hookshot, go trough Lost woods
Tp - Arbiters ground: Turn back into wolf, go trough larger hyrule sewers, meet zelda, go to faron woods, clear sacred grove, solve guardians puzzle, get master sword, Meet Telma, Go to lake hylia, Travel trough Gerudodessert/Bulbin Camp.

OoT - Fire Temple: Go to death mountain, get fire tunic
TP - Snowpeak Ruins: Go to Snowpeak to get drawing, go to zora prince, catch reekfish, climb snowpeak ruins, snowboard back down.

OoT - Water Temple: Go to zora'd domain, clear ice cavern/get boots, get zora tunic
TP - Temple Of Time: Clear Sacred grove again, Open Timegate

OoT - Shadow Temple: Learn song of storms, Bottom of thewell/get eye of truth
TP - Sky Temple: travel to kakariko, get ilia's memory back, go to hidden village, receive sky book, restore domion rod powers, Find missing Letters in Sky book, return to kakariko, go to lake hylia

OoT - Spirit Temple: Clear Gerudo Valley, travel trough haunted wastelands
TP - Palace of Twilight: Travel back to arbiters grounds

OoT - Ganons Castle: go to temple of time
TP - Hyrule Castle: Go to Hyrule Castle

So altough granted that they got a bit lazy, or uninspired perhaps, towards the end, overal you do a crapload more between temples then you did in OoT. Which makes me wonder why on earth you feel like you do more in OoT during the main quest. What I wrote down is pure facts, there's no way arround it.

As for sidequests and minigames, there's a decent amount in TP:

Fishing
Zora river ride
Zora river flight
Goat herding
Snowpeak snowboarding
STAR game
Collecting Bugs
Collecting Poe's
Malo Mart

It's not that much less compared to OoT, or MM when you really think about it, it's just that the ones in OoT and MM we're more memorable, and a bit better in some cases.

I do agree on a lot of other things you said though, Why there isn't a path down to lake Hylia, God knows why. Same goes for why on earth they give you the horse reed at pretty much the end of the game. Towns aren't that bad, though it would have been much better if kakariko would become more populated along the main quest, and yeah, goron "city", Huge dissapointment. Castle town was good, but needed more houses you could enter.

Not liking the wolf gameplay or Midna, well, that's a personal opinion

So besides the things to do inbetween i mostly agree with you. I feel like they started out really well but got lost halfway the game. My main complaint would be that the world doesn't feel alive enough.

good points, but how many of the TP sidequests feel genuinely valuable? Also, regardless of what must be done "in-between" during TP, for the relative size of the game this time is still short. This isn't extremely noticeable in the first three dungeons, they were well done I'd say (as was said above), but later on it's very noticeable, such as going from the Twilight Palace to Hyrule Castle.

Originally Posted by CrazyLink500

Also, possibly along with this too, there wasn't nearly enough to do between dungeons. The reason why this game was so short (as people are now complaining about) is because it takes literally minutes (some of the time, not always) to go from finishing one dungeon and starting another.

I seriously stopped reading after this comment. What version of TP are you playing? That comment is a joke, and for you to even suggest that removes any credablity that you might of had. If you think there were more things to do between Temple's in OoT, then your nuts.

Yeah, that's kinda what I mean with the minigames in OoT/MM being more memorable. The only ones I really enjoy doing is the zora river ride and fishing.

It's sad to see, how a game that got delayed a year still ends up missing so many (little) things that could have made the game so much better. Game Hype, it's a dangerous thing

Lol here come the flames.

Anyway I agree with you on some of the things you say. I do feel it felt contrived. The beginning the most. But I already said my complaints. I also agree with not going back to a place anymore. Right when I left Kakariko, I never felt like going back (except for the Malo sidquest). It was always the same after you left. Although a lot of Zelda's felt like that. There was a lot to do between temple's though.

Originally Posted by TwilightPrince1

I seriously stopped reading after this comment. What version of TP are you playing? That comment is a joke, and for you to even suggest that removes any credablity that you might of had. If you think there were more things to do between Temple's in OoT, then your nuts.

I'm playing the Wii version. I'm talking about going from Twilight Palace to Hyrule Castle.. I think it took me like 5-10 minutes (if even that) when you don't consider the cutscenes. I am also talking about, in general, the last few temples. It was very quick. I don't remember my logged hours when I started playing the last half of the temples compared to the first half but there was a LOT less time logged, I know that. Minutes = not an hour, let's put it that way. Im not saying like a 3 minutes. Minutes could mean like half an hour to an hour even.

Originally Posted by CrazyLink500

I'm playing the Wii version. I'm talking about going from Twilight Palace to Hyrule Castle.. I think it took me like 5-10 minutes (if even that) when you don't consider the cutscenes. I am also talking about, in general, the last few temples. It was very quick. I don't remember my logged hours when I started playing the last half of the temples compared to the first half but there was a LOT less time logged, I know that. Minutes = not an hour, let's put it that way. Im not saying like a 3 minutes. Minutes could mean like half an hour to an hour even.

The transition between the palace of twilight and hyrule castle is ONE example. What about all of the other things that you have to do between Temple's, did you forget about those? If you only want to give one example, and think that justifies the entire your argument for the entire game, then I'll do the same with OoT. You only have to go to Dampe's grave and get the hookshot before entering the Forest Temple. So please, think before you post such nonsense.

Originally Posted by TwilightPrince1

The transition between the palace of twilight and hyrule castle is ONE example. What about all of the other things that you have to do between Temple's, did you forget about those? If you only want to give one example, and think that justifies the entire your argument for the entire game, then I'll do the same with OoT. You only have to go to Dampe's grave and get the hookshot before entering the Forest Temple. So please, think before you post such nonsense.

HERE'S more examples.. going from every TEMPLE to TEMPLE for the last 4 temples probably took me less than an hour each. I mean, that's exactly what I'm saying... if you're trying to counter my point, bring up any of those temples and tell me why it takes you longer.

Originally Posted by CrazyLink500

HERE'S more examples.. going from every TEMPLE to TEMPLE for the last 4 temples probably took me less than an hour each. I mean, that's exactly what I'm saying... if you're trying to counter my point, bring up any of those temples and tell me why it takes you longer.

And the transition between the final Temple's in OoT took longer? If I remember correctly, all you need to do is gerudo's fortress before the spirit temple in Ocarina, which doesn't take very long. I could name even more examples, but I'm done countering your flawed thread, and statements.

I have to agree with TwilightPrince1 with this one. There was as much to do between dungoen's in TP as there was in OOT. Between ToT and SITK, you had to collect six characters in the book, ALL spread out in Hyrule, then get the canon, and bring it to the clown guy. IF you don't have 300 you have to go looking for it. There was a lot to do between temple's.

Collecting the six characters for the book would have been more fun if the guy hadn't told you exactly where all the statues are...

I actually thought there was only four, I didn't look at Gerudo's desert and Faron woods. Only Hyrule field.

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

Collecting the six characters for the book would have been more fun if the guy hadn't told you exactly where all the statues are...

I wouldn't call that fun.. you do realize how massive hyrule is right? Manually searching for them would've taken hours, and would've been rather frustrating. We'd be talking about that quest in the same sentence as the triforce hunt in Wind Waker if they didn't tell you where they were.

Originally Posted by TwilightPrince1

And the transition between the final Temple's in OoT took longer? If I remember correctly, all you need to do is gerudo's fortress before the spirit temple in Ocarina, which doesn't take very long. I could name even more examples, but I'm done countering your flawed thread, and statements.

you're making an argument on the implication that im argueing that OoT is BIGGER than TP, which I'm not argueing at all. I know TP is bigger. But given the RELATIVE size of TP, more is expected than less than an hour of required gameplay between dungeons.

this however, is a meager arguement when stacked with the other flaws I mentioned in the game, which I consider to be MUCH more important.

All I can say is if you have problems with TP you must have MAJOR problems with the other Zelda's.

Originally Posted by daeth

All I can say is if you have problems with TP you must have MAJOR problems with the other Zelda's.

Actually, I loved all the other zeldas. I even thought TWW was good.

Originally Posted by daeth

I wouldn't call that fun.. you do realize how massive hyrule is right? Manually searching for them would've taken hours, and would've been rather frustrating. We'd be talking about that quest in the same sentence as the triforce hunt in Wind Waker if they didn't tell you where they were.

Are you kidding? By that point in the game, hadn't you already seen all of the statues and wondered what they were? Hell, the first thing I did after the Temple of Time was to run around to those statues and try to use the Dominion Rod on them...only to find out that the rod didn't work outside of the temple. I had no idea there was anything underneath the statues at that point, but I knew I could use them to get to the treasure chests...

The only statue that's actually hard to find is the one in the forest.

Think how much the Ocarina of Time experience would be cheapened if, for example, the bean seller told you where all of the patches of dirt were for the beans? And did you really have such a hard time finding those?

Granted, the statues are necessary to enter the next temple, and the beans were not...so what they could have done instead is had the fortune teller give you hints under the "Career" heading. Much better than Shad flat-out telling you where they all were.