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Originally Posted by Ganon the King

Yes, you make a strong point. MM did create a new peak for how Zelda should be. Sadly, Nintendo failed to pick up on what made it so great and did not include those sort of things in TWW/TP.

People have been so disappointed with TP because it wasn't Zelda next-gen. What it was was a mixture of OoT/ALttP and a few MM elements in a next-gen "skin" with really nice cutscenes and better visuals. It did not surpass previous Zeldas in terms of monster variety, enemy difficulty, level design (it did to a degree though), character side-quests, improved overworld, overworld emptiness, details and bits of information that can be uncovered in the storyline. To make it worse it created issues like: what was the point of the Oocca? The story about them is left unfinished. Ganondorf doesn't even acknowledge Link's presence and TP ends up proving, to a degree, that Link was only their to defeat the final boss to defeat the final boss, nothing else - it made it feel like he had no purpose. You actually have to go back and thing, "why is Link here in the first place? Oh yeah, now I remember" - such was the emphasis on Midna. It was just Midna this, Midna that. And don't anyone say this is a rant, because this is the HONEST TRUTH.

Yes. I agree. These are just some aspects that the zelda team will have to seriously work on in order to make the game like or possibly better than MM. I wonder if shigeru knows about these complaints. Practically everone who has played MM or even WW can say that TP lacked extra exploration and details. Now if Miyamoto thinks that the game had so much to do as in SQ's then I'd be pretty scared. Let's compare TP to MM:

TP:
-Snowboarding race (10-20 min.)

MM:
-Goron race and Zora race against beavers (25-30 min.)

TP:
-Star challenge minigame in CT & Rollgoal minigame (25-50 min.)

MM:
-7 minigames (4 in CT, 1 in Swamp area, 2 in Beach area) (60-100 min.)

TP:
-Collecting Agatha's bugs throughout adventure (60-150 min.)

MM:
-Collecting 23 masks (400-500+ min.)

MM:
-The two skulltula houses (40-60 min.)

MM:
-Getting each fairy in every temple (80-120 min.)

TP:
-Magic armor quest (30-40 min.) <--Being generous

MM:
-Anju & kafei quest (50-160 min.) <--Depending on how many retries


The idea is that the zelda team shouldn't sacrifice one area in the game to make the main adventure better. The adventure should get better along with the sidequests that compliment it. Why would nintendo just say "Okay, MM had quite a few sidequests but let's just **** that and make the main quest have 3 more temples with a really large but empty overworld. I'd rather the overworld be even smaller than Termina so long that it gives so much life that you'll never know whether you've actually completed everything in the game.

You cannot judge a game by bonus features, GOD!

You cannot deem a game great just because you are a fanboy, GOD!

You're a fanboy of MM! And i will admit TP had it's flaws but MM was just awful!

Originally Posted by thezeldaguy

Yes. I agree. These are just some aspects that the zelda team will have to seriously work on in order to make the game like or possibly better than MM. I wonder if shigeru knows about these complaints. Practically everone who has played MM or even WW can say that TP lacked extra exploration and details. Now if Miyamoto thinks that the game had so much to do as in SQ's then I'd be pretty scared. Let's compare TP to MM:

TP:
-Snowboarding race (10-20 min.)

MM:
-Goron race and Zora race against beavers (25-30 min.)

TP:
-Star challenge minigame in CT & Rollgoal minigame (25-50 min.)

MM:
-7 minigames (4 in CT, 1 in Swamp area, 2 in Beach area) (60-100 min.)

TP:
-Collecting Agatha's bugs throughout adventure (60-150 min.)

MM:
-Collecting 23 masks (400-500+ min.)

MM:
-The two skulltula houses (40-60 min.)

MM:
-Getting each fairy in every temple (80-120 min.)

TP:
-Magic armor quest (30-40 min.) <--Being generous

MM:
-Anju & kafei quest (50-160 min.) <--Depending on how many retries


The idea is that the zelda team shouldn't sacrifice one area in the game to make the main adventure better. The adventure should get better along with the sidequests that compliment it. Why would nintendo just say "Okay, MM had quite a few sidequests but let's just **** that and make the main quest have 3 more temples with a really large but empty overworld. I'd rather the overworld be even smaller than Termina so long that it gives so much life that you'll never know whether you've actually completed everything in the game.

NOW I know why I disliked TP, I mean it had nearly everything I've ever wanted in a Zelda game, but after I finished it, it felt so incomplete, and the world felt so 2d compared to OoT, MM, and even WW, but I just couldn't put my finger on WHAT made it like that...

EDIT: and goron race was almost as hard for me as anju + kafei... god I think I used a walk through for anju + kafei (i had no idea what to do, how the hell to get into kafei's house. I think I did the rest by myself though, but it took forever), I feel so ashamed!

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

You're a fanboy of MM!

Your Proof. Where is it.



I stopped arguing about zelda years ago.



ARGUING WITH ZELDA FANS ARE LIKE ARGUING WITH A BRICK WALL.

We agree on something! Why are you here if you stopped arguing about Zelda years ago?

EDIT: and goron race was almost as hard for me as anju + kafei... god I think I used a walk through for anju + kafei (i had no idea what to do, how the hell to get into kafei's house. I think I did the rest by myself though, but it took forever), I feel so ashamed!

LOL i know what you mean! I had to use a guide for Kafei-Anju quest but that damned Goron race kicks me butt all the time!! Its tough! I can USUALLY get it by the third try but i remember one time it took me like 10 tries! Oh the anger.

Originally Posted by Wolf O'Donnell

ARGUING WITH ZELDA FANS ARE LIKE ARGUING WITH A BRICK WALL.

This is so true, it's not even funny.

Very few Zelda fans actually take a neutral stance on the games. D:

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

We agree on something! Why are you here if you stopped arguing about Zelda years ago?

If I told you, I'd have to kill you.


Ben: I agree, you get nowhere with them by arguing.

Originally Posted by rageagainst

Yeah give character progression to freaking recurring characters, not characters that magically dissapear/die at the end of the game (though I'm convinced the King guy was already a ghost... so how did a ghost die?)

Midna took way too much of a role in the last game, it was annoying. I really didn't care all too much what happened to Midna and what her back story is. I mean the other characters we've been following for decades, but midna, just introduced in THAT game, becomes a show stopper and the focus of the whole freaking story!

The char progression of WW was perfect, the backup character (the king) wasn't like navi, where you knew nothing about her, but he didn't take up the whole story like Midna, and left the main story be focused on the main characters

EDIT: agree with Ganon the King, b/c the char progression is so focused on Midna, we don't even know why Link agrees to do things half the time. In OoT he had an emotional investment to do things... though I think in WW you don't know why he's doing things after he rescues his sister...

And this is exactly what I am afraid of. TP is living proof that Nintendo (not definitely, but may) take the wrong approach to the storyline and use the side-kick as a device to keep the plot moving. The KoRL was a perfect example of a good supporting character that didn't take up the whole picture.

I'd also like to maintain that I loved TP. Even though the storyline confused me, bothered me at time and I saw TP's drawbacks and felt their was something missing (character side-quests etc), I still felt very emotional on finishing the game. It just felt like another Zelda, and to a degree a low-par Zelda that had so much more potential given the new power of the Gamecube/Wii technology and the fact Nintendo had so much time to think of ways to intergrate towns and the overworld together and other things like that.

Originally Posted by thezeldaguy

Yes. I agree. These are just some aspects that the zelda team will have to seriously work on in order to make the game like or possibly better than MM. I wonder if shigeru knows about these complaints. Practically everone who has played MM or even WW can say that TP lacked extra exploration and details. Now if Miyamoto thinks that the game had so much to do as in SQ's then I'd be pretty scared. Let's compare TP to MM:

TP:
-Snowboarding race (10-20 min.)

MM:
-Goron race and Zora race against beavers (25-30 min.)

TP:
-Star challenge minigame in CT & Rollgoal minigame (25-50 min.)

MM:
-7 minigames (4 in CT, 1 in Swamp area, 2 in Beach area) (60-100 min.)

TP:
-Collecting Agatha's bugs throughout adventure (60-150 min.)

MM:
-Collecting 23 masks (400-500+ min.)

MM:
-The two skulltula houses (40-60 min.)

MM:
-Getting each fairy in every temple (80-120 min.)

TP:
-Magic armor quest (30-40 min.) <--Being generous

MM:
-Anju & kafei quest (50-160 min.) <--Depending on how many retries


The idea is that the zelda team shouldn't sacrifice one area in the game to make the main adventure better. The adventure should get better along with the sidequests that compliment it. Why would nintendo just say "Okay, MM had quite a few sidequests but let's just **** that and make the main quest have 3 more temples with a really large but empty overworld. I'd rather the overworld be even smaller than Termina so long that it gives so much life that you'll never know whether you've actually completed everything in the game.

Yes, not including character side-quests and a world full of detail and interesting characters on the grounds that they are focusing on the main-quest and "extra dungeons" is slack on Nintendo's part. I would literally rather have four (4), ultra awesome, highly difficulty, time-consuming, intricate and beautifully crafted, long and challenging dungeons than 6 good good dungeons with 2 awful dungeons to finish with. Coming with those 4 dungeons would be an awesome amount of character side-quests that all the player to fully explore and enjoy the world of Hyrule/or other world, which creates memorable experiences in all parts of that world. This way there is more exploration and a more lively world. I wouldn't even care if this world is smaller than TP's. TP had a lot of useless space and areas that could have been used to make the towns larger and more detailed with extra interesting characters.

Also, does anyone agree that TP lacked a certain magic that some of the characters MM had? Like the Gorman brother in the bar, and Talon in the bar and the guy that gives you the Bremen mask... All these people are unique and have a story to tell... all in a way that is almost real-life like and with emotion. On top of it, there are great tunes and songs that assist with this. TP's world however lacks any of this depth.

Also, even though MM blows any other Zelda away in side-quests, I feel that Zelda still needs a couple of mini-games that are super intricate and time-consuming. Almost like another game inside a game, that keeps you super addicted. This will result in a world that feels like it is home and that you can always go back to this place and play that mini-game.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

You cannot judge a game by bonus features, GOD!

Why not? How about you add a little bit more to the discussion instead of one-sentence opinions and stop trying to get your post count up because thats what it looks like.

Originally Posted by rageagainst

NOW I know why I disliked TP, I mean it had nearly everything I've ever wanted in a Zelda game, but after I finished it, it felt so incomplete, and the world felt so 2d compared to OoT, MM, and even WW, but I just couldn't put my finger on WHAT made it like that...

EDIT: and goron race was almost as hard for me as anju + kafei... god I think I used a walk through for anju + kafei (i had no idea what to do, how the hell to get into kafei's house. I think I did the rest by myself though, but it took forever), I feel so ashamed!

Of course it had nearly everything. OoT utilized the Cuccoos in a cool way where you could fly off buildings etc. TP did it even better with the Cuccoo flying mini-game over Lake Hylia. Sadly, the supposed hub of Hyrule lacks in comparison to something like Clock Town. Lets compare Castle Town (TP) to Clock Town (MM) and we can see this:

CT:
1. 1x shop - becomes Malo Mart and sells nothing of interest - yes even the Magic armour was pointless.
2. 1x mini-game (STAR game)
3. Telma's bar
4. Observational tower - that I would say is pointless
5. The medical practitioner - also pointless
6. The cafe area - also pointless
7. The old man that wants money - rewards you with heart piece.
8. Talk to the cats - nice little touch but sort of pointless
9. Jevani's place - rewards you with pointless rewards

Clock Town:
1. The inn - actually serves a lot of purposes - Anju side-quest, hints to other side-quests, other side-quests and you get your own room!
2. The bar - has interesting characters with interesting stories and alcohol is MILK!
3. The bomb shop - involves a side-quest and buy powder kegs to get to Romani Ranch on first day - becomes important thing.
4. The Deku scrub mini-game
5. The Great Fairy - only good once but still
6. The Bombers secret hideout - pass time easily with the scarecrow
7. The mayors headquarters - involves interesting scene with dramatic music and involves side-quest.
8. Shooting gallery
9. That other treasure mini-game
10. The lover's mini-game
11. The banker - stores money (very useful) and eventually gives heart piece.
12. The curiosity shop - sells the special mask and involves side-quest
13. The Sakon side-quest
14. Kafei's hideout- involves a side-quest and gives you the Keaton mask
15. Tingle - sells maps
16. Climb the slide - get a heart piece
17. The business scrub - starts the title deed side-quest
18. The sword-fighting place - gets a heart piece I think? Also provides a bit of a challenge or so I can remember
19. The post office - postman involved in a number of side-quests
20. The washing pool area - at night the Song of Storms guy comes - gets you the Bremen Mask
21. The dogs - As Deku scrub they knock you over - nice little touch
22. As Deku scrub you are called a child and discriminated against
23. Get the bombs from Sakon or don't get the bombs - side-quest/rewards
24. And theres other nice little touches and probably other things that I can't think of.

Its made very obvious that MM clearly has a lot more things going for it. On top of all that, half the places you visit in Castle Town (TP) are pointless.

Maybe people don't realize this but when you add more to the main quest your sacrificing the side quests. MM and TWW had a lot of deep side questing but those games were limited in dungeon count, many people complained about it being too short. Those people were the type who didn't go for the sidequesting. I'll admit, I don't sidequest that much...and I would perfer more effort into main quest over side quests...Though I believe there should be a nice healthy medium.

Originally Posted by Zeldablue777

Maybe people don't realize this but when you add more to the main quest your sacrificing the side quests. MM and TWW had a lot of deep side questing but those games were limited in dungeon count, many people complained about it being too short. Those people were the type who didn't go for the sidequesting. I'll admit, I don't sidequest that much...and I would perfer more effort into main quest over side quests...Though I believe there should be a nice healthy medium.

actually i agree with you here, but the main quest wasn't breathtaking or unique like OoT's, it was almost copypasta of OoT's storyline, except Midna took all the main characters' roles. I like main quests over side quests definitely, but the main quest of TP was lacking AND its world just seemed so empty, there was nothing that made it seem alive, or even interesting. I deliberately went through the game slow, and was sad to see there was very little attention to detail, all the places link visits were 1 dimensional.

Though I don't know, I may actually like sidequests, I didn't like them at all in MM because it seemed everything you did was in vain, it was all going to be reset in another 3 days, so I didn't feel attatched at all to the conclusion of a sidequest.

And on story... MM like had no main quest story, it was disturbingly simple like LoZ's story or LA's story, another reason why I didn't like it.

Though I don't know, I may actually like sidequests, I didn't like them at all in MM because it seemed everything you did was in vain, it was all going to be reset in another 3 days, so I didn't feel attatched at all to the conclusion of a sidequest.

I believe if you complete every sidequest you see all the characters you helped at the end of the game. Like if you did the Anju & Kafei sidequest, you see Kafei as an adult marrying Anju. So there was a payoff.

And on story... MM like had no main quest story, it was disturbingly simple like LoZ's story or LA's story, another reason why I didn't like it.

I don't think LOZ or LA had an in-game story. But they did have a story in the manual. And Majora's Mask definently had a story, it was about defeating Majora.

Originally Posted by Zeldablue777

Maybe people don't realize this but when you add more to the main quest your sacrificing the side quests. MM and TWW had a lot of deep side questing but those games were limited in dungeon count, many people complained about it being too short. Those people were the type who didn't go for the sidequesting. I'll admit, I don't sidequest that much...and I would perfer more effort into main quest over side quests...Though I believe there should be a nice healthy medium.

Oi! Thats exactly how i feel. MM's sidequest WERE cool but thats basically all the game was made up of making the main story painfully short. Minigames are something i rarely do much of in any game not just Zelda. so yeah a healthy balance would be nice.

Sure, go ahead and make these kinds of broad generalizations when we know almost nothing about the game. Speculating about the plot based off the artwork is one thing but if you're gonna make these sweeping generalizations based off absolutely nothing, then you're off your rocker.

"though I don't know, I may actually like sidequests, I didn't like them at all in MM because it seemed everything you did was in vain, it was all going to be reset in another 3 days, so I didn't feel attatched at all to the conclusion of a sidequest.

And on story... MM like had no main quest story, it was disturbingly simple like LoZ's story or LA's story, another reason why I didn't like it."

What?? i...i don't understand how it is possible to say something so demonstrably wrong and opposite to the truth,... i cant even bring myself to explain why, because if you believe that! your to far gone to reach!

Lol, when I play Zelda I don't touch a side quest until after I've beaten the game.

Originally Posted by Foley

"though I don't know, I may actually like sidequests, I didn't like them at all in MM because it seemed everything you did was in vain, it was all going to be reset in another 3 days, so I didn't feel attatched at all to the conclusion of a sidequest.

And on story... MM like had no main quest story, it was disturbingly simple like LoZ's story or LA's story, another reason why I didn't like it."

What?? i...i don't understand how it is possible to say something so demonstrably wrong and opposite to the truth,... i cant even bring myself to explain why, because if you believe that! your to far gone to reach!

lol how is that wrong? There was as much of a main story in MM as in LA. You just go about getting 4 giants, all the while going through a mass of sidequests, which are reset 3 days later, with very little/no surprises or unexpected complications in the midle. Then you kill majora and get your horse back.

At least LA had a twist ending.