Should Ganondorf return?

Originally Posted by Darth Alec

Half the point of Zant was his sudden breakdown into insanity. Up until that point, he was just another wannabee Ganondorf.

He had no potential as an independant villain, because his spot as the "badass" villain is already taken by Ganondorf in the Zelda series.

1- Insanity doesn't require him to be a lame looking, infantile and whiny jester. They could have done insanity that actually fit his character

2- Ganondorf is quick to anger. Zant was mysterious, creepy, emotionless and unperturbed by his situation. He most certainly was not a clone of Ganondorf

3- There are several badass villians in Zelda and Vaati is one of them who actually was given a chance

Ganon(dorf) better not be in Zelda wii. They need to give him a break, after being in all the 3Ds, except for Majora's Mask. We need someone new, whose insanity is on par with that of Majora's.

I still like the idea of ZWii being about the creation of the master sword. Think about it, what person or thing could be so destructive they need to create a magical sword to destroy him!

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

I still like the idea of ZWii being about the creation of the master sword. Think about it, what person or thing could be so destructive they need to create a magical sword to destroy him!

That wasn't why they made the sword, it was to seal the entrance to the Temple of Light

When and where was that said? And why did they need to seal the entrance?

Originally Posted by Aleitheo

1- Insanity doesn't require him to be a lame looking, infantile and whiny jester. They could have done insanity that actually fit his character

A ) His looks? Really? In fact, it's a perfect example. With his mask, he looks like a badass, with it off, he looks like a wuss, not frightening at all. Just like he was when he was the powerfull one.

B ) You are basing his "character" on his appearences while he was in power, ignoring the parts where he was not, therefore, you are basing his "character" without including every appearance. He wasn't stable before his powertrip, and when he was threatened, that inherent instability surfaced and caused the crack in his so-far perfect surface.

2- Ganondorf is quick to anger. Zant was mysterious, creepy, emotionless and unperturbed by his situation. He most certainly was not a clone of Ganondorf

Zant was the very opposite of unperturbed. The second anyone put pressure on him, his house of cards collapsed harder then the World Trade Center. Zant's character was weak. Zant was weak. What do weak people do when they get power? They act like the total badasses they never were, and when they are no longer strong, their weakness shows twice as much. He lived off his newfound, undeserved power, and when he lost that, he lost everything.

3- There are several badass villians in Zelda and Vaati is one of them who actually was given a chance

Vaati has been proven to be less badass by being a pawn.

Not in the new zelda wii, since link just fought ganondorf

Originally Posted by Darth Alec

A ) His looks? Really? In fact, it's a perfect example. With his mask, he looks like a badass, with it off, he looks like a wuss, not frightening at all. Just like he was when he was the powerfull one.

B ) You are basing his "character" on his appearences while he was in power, ignoring the parts where he was not, therefore, you are basing his "character" without including every appearance. He wasn't stable before his powertrip, and when he was threatened, that inherent instability surfaced and caused the crack in his so-far perfect surface.



Zant was the very opposite of unperturbed. The second anyone put pressure on him, his house of cards collapsed harder then the World Trade Center. Zant's character was weak. Zant was weak. What do weak people do when they get power? They act like the total badasses they never were, and when they are no longer strong, their weakness shows twice as much. He lived off his newfound, undeserved power, and when he lost that, he lost everything.



Vaati has been proven to be less badass by being a pawn.

When I am talking about Zant being badass, I am talking about the Zant that we were shown to be badass, not how he was afterwards.

We were shown a really cool character and Nintendo turned it around by making him into what they did at the end.

I know that the real Zant was the one at the end, I am not talking about him, I am talking about the kind of character we were teased with and didn't actually get.

When I say he was unperturbed it was obvious I meant the badass Zant. He didn't seem to care that Link and Midna got the Fused Shadows and took them away with ease. He didn't kill Midna but left her to live in suffering. That is what I am on about.

Zant is so much different after he cracks that its like a totally different character. If he was to go insane, they could have at least kept him in character with his powerful self.

As for Vaati, he is much more than a pawn, he was around before Ganondorf was and attacked Hyrule first. Ganon started off with help from loyal Gerudo where Vaati did not

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

When and where was that said? And why did they need to seal the entrance?

If you played OoT you would know.

After all, Ganon was trying to get there in the first half of the game and succeeded when Link drew the Master Sword, letting Ganon get the triforce of power and enslave Hyrule

Originally Posted by Aleitheo

When I am talking about Zant being badass, I am talking about the Zant that we were shown to be badass, not how he was afterwards.

Then you are looking at this the wrong way. Zant's true character is the insane Zant we see both times he loses the throne.

We were shown a really cool character and Nintendo turned it around by making him into what they did at the end.

Which is their privilege, and might have been the plan all along.

I know that the real Zant was the one at the end, I am not talking about him, I am talking about the kind of character we were teased with and didn't actually get.

The wanabee Ganondorf Zant? Why would you want a wanabee Ganondorf? To be different for the sake of being different? Pointless.

When I say he was unperturbed it was obvious I meant the badass Zant. He didn't seem to care that Link and Midna got the Fused Shadows and took them away with ease. He didn't kill Midna but left her to live in suffering. That is what I am on about.

Why would he care? He was much more powerfull then the two of them. Not caring about someone who isn't a threat isn't exactly a special trait. Ganondorf did this as well, even after getting hurt three times.

Zant is so much different after he cracks that its like a totally different character. If he was to go insane, they could have at least kept him in character with his powerful self.

Insane is insane. Maybe you missed the point of insane, but it is the opposite of sane.

As for Vaati, he is much more than a pawn, he was around before Ganondorf was and attacked Hyrule first.

He is still a pawn.

Ganon started off with help from loyal Gerudo where Vaati did not

Ganondorf didn't start out with a magic hat that grants wishes.

In fact, Vaati is even more of a fool. Not only did he start out with a hat that grants wishes, he didn't even know how to get the power he was seeking. He didn't even notice it was right under his nose the entire time.

Originally Posted by DrFeelGood666

yeah, but still. he had the ToP. they wouldnt of let him keep it if they were going to finish him on that timeline. But in the CT, he def. died cause the ToP disappeared off of his hand.

And he came back in A Link to the Past... which is surely after Twilight Princess. They better not bring him back unless they take a look at the official Zelda timeline of theirs and bring him back somewhere that won't screw my the generally accept timeline up.

As far as I am concerned, Ganondrof is dead on both timelines:

OOT - MM - (Twilight Realm Sentence, returns) - TP (killed, reborn, Sealing War) - ALTTP (killed) - OOS/OOA (Twinrova attempts to revive, fails)

OOT - (sealed, escapes) - TWW - (killed, Master Sword lost, reborn as ancient demon) - FSA - (sealed, escapes) -LOZ - (killed) - AOL (minions attempt to revive, fail)

Don't bring him back unless it is to chronicle the Sealing War that, on my timeline, happened after Twilight Princess and before A Link to the Past. After that, leave him be to let the timeline stay at peace and not be messed up again my his overdose of appearances.

i dont think they should bring him Back, he's been overused too many times,


However if they were to bring him back i think an Enemy Civil War could work but not against Vaati, this time against Majora's Mask seeing how Majora is more powerful then Ganon/Ganondorf (Majora Brought the Moon down and put everyone in Fear, Ganon/Ganondorf only Brought Fear seeing as how he just Ordered his minions around while Sitting in a throne Half the time)

i hope they Bring back Majora

Originally Posted by Darth Alec

Then you are looking at this the wrong way. Zant's true character is the insane Zant we see both times he loses the throne.

Actually you just aren't listening, I already made it clear I know that the real Zant is the one at the end, I am talking about the one we were shown before that

Which is their privilege, and might have been the plan all along.

I know they can do that, I am just saying that showing us a really good character and then turning them into something lame to accomadate a character they barely used effectively is a bad move

The wanabee Ganondorf Zant? Why would you want a wanabee Ganondorf? To be different for the sake of being different? Pointless.

I already made it clear that Zant is not the same as Ganondorf. There are major differences between the two I already stated, all they have in common is they are powerful and ruthless which aren't exactly unique traits

Why would he care? He was much more powerfull then the two of them. Not caring about someone who isn't a threat isn't exactly a special trait. Ganondorf did this as well, even after getting hurt three times.

You once again miss the point. Where Ganon took great enjoyment with dealing with his enemies, Zant made out as if he couldn't really be bothered, looking down upon his enemies as if they are nothing

Insane is insane. Maybe you missed the point of insane, but it is the opposite of sane.

So are you saying that every single insane person is alike?
Insane is merely just not right in the head, there are loads of personalities someone can have and be insane. Think of a sane version of Zant, see how different he is to the powerful version?

He is still a pawn.

Being used as a pawn does not make him a pawn and a pawn only. Like I already said, he was the big bad guy in Minish Cap. If he was just a pawn then he wouldn't be the big villian in his own game

Ganondorf didn't start out with a magic hat that grants wishes.

Wishes that are obviously limited in power, otherwise he would have ruled the world instantly

In fact, Vaati is even more of a fool. Not only did he start out with a hat that grants wishes, he didn't even know how to get the power he was seeking. He didn't even notice it was right under his nose the entire time.

Not knowing everything about a mysterious power does not make you a fool

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Overall, you miss the point with Zant;

1- I am aware that the badass Zant is not the real one
2- I am saying we were made to believe that the badass Zant was the real one
3- There was a complete character change and the badass we were shown turned out to actually be a lame jester, a total joke
4- Just because Zant is powerful and ruthless just like Ganon, doesn't mean he is a clone of him. There are major differences between the two which make him unique
5- Twilight Princess could have had a great story with Zant as the big villain he was originally portrayed to be and no mention of Ganondorf at all, rather than the complete turn around the game had halfway through and guest starring Ganondorf

On the subject of TP seemingly changing quite a bit halfway through the game, here are some videos of beta characters that didn't make it.

This one was done with the action replay
The first half is an Armos Titan and the second seems to be many Gorons somehow forming a giant golem

This one has models ripped from the CD itself
Many of them are early versions of enemies, some not even in the game

Also there is the first trailer for the game which leads us to believe that TP changed alot over development and there is a noticable sudden change of many things around the halfway point of the game

Should Ganondorf return? Well, I guess that would depend on how one means the question. Ever? Certainly. He is, as many have said, the main antagonist of the series, and many of his incarnations have been effective villains. The reason why some of them are ineffective though, is because he is starting to become overused. So if the question is being asked as should Ganondorf return in the next game? Then I would readily say no. He's had a good run for a while, but his latest appearances, most notably in TP, have been lacking in depth, originality, and/or execution.

I think the next... probably two games at least, though perhaps three to be safe, should include other villains. I can only hope that both Spirit Tracks and the Wii Zelda will leave him be for some time. He has suffered from a serious case of villain decay, and needs some time to recompose himself for another appearance. I'd very much like to see him return in a few games time in a new and effective manner. Until then, others should take his place.

He should return in the twentieth game as long as they don't use the same villian every game i'd be glad if they gave him a rest.

Originally Posted by Aleitheo

On the subject of TP seemingly changing quite a bit halfway through the game, here are some videos of beta characters that didn't make it.

This one was done with the action replay
The first half is an Armos Titan and the second seems to be many Gorons somehow forming a giant golem

This one has models ripped from the CD itself
Many of them are early versions of enemies, some not even in the game

Also there is the first trailer for the game which leads us to believe that TP changed alot over development and there is a noticable sudden change of many things around the halfway point of the game

I sure am glad that they didn't make the cut, ... except for the Armos Titan, even though the whole "moving statue" thing was overdone in TP... and the unknown creature looks like he had potential... It would be cool if they were able to pick up Link and throw him

Originally Posted by Aleitheo

Actually you just aren't listening, I already made it clear I know that the real Zant is the one at the end, I am talking about the one we were shown before that

The generic "I'm bad, don't care, handwaving mystical powers" character?

I know they can do that, I am just saying that showing us a really good character and then turning them into something lame to accomadate a character they barely used effectively is a bad move

Now you are assuming that they had to change Zant's character to accomodate Ganondorf. For all we know, he could have been insane all along. And it is purely your opinion that Zant became lame because of his crazyness. Some people, me including, think that Zant became a much better character because of his fall from grace.

I already made it clear that Zant is not the same as Ganondorf. There are major differences between the two I already stated, all they have in common is they are powerful and ruthless which aren't exactly unique traits

They aren't exactly the same, but Zant has no independant purpose. He has nothing without Ganondorf. Even if he did have something to call his own, his non-insane personality lacks in depth and interesting.

You once again miss the point. Where Ganon took great enjoyment with dealing with his enemies, Zant made out as if he couldn't really be bothered, looking down upon his enemies as if they are nothing

"an impressive blade, but nothing else". Ganondorf wasn't so impressed by Link either.

Then again, why would a villain with no emotions be better then one with?

So are you saying that every single insane person is alike?
Insane is merely just not right in the head, there are loads of personalities someone can have and be insane. Think of a sane version of Zant, see how different he is to the powerful version?

I am certainly not saying that every insane person is the same. However, complete and total personality changes are common when people experience extremem trauma.

Being used as a pawn does not make him a pawn and a pawn only. Like I already said, he was the big bad guy in Minish Cap. If he was just a pawn then he wouldn't be the big villian in his own game

He has acted independently, but he is still one of Ganondorfs pawns.

Wishes that are obviously limited in power, otherwise he would have ruled the world instantly

Still wishes that made him redicilously overpowered. He literally took over the world by stealing a hat. Not a lot of work. Even TP Ganondorf had to do more.

Not knowing everything about a mysterious power does not make you a fool

No, but not noticing that the power was in her all along does. Being played like a fiddle by another villain does.

---

Overall, you miss the point with Zant;

1- I am aware that the badass Zant is not the real one
2- I am saying we were made to believe that the badass Zant was the real one
3- There was a complete character change and the badass we were shown turned out to actually be a lame jester, a total joke
4- Just because Zant is powerful and ruthless just like Ganon, doesn't mean he is a clone of him. There are major differences between the two which make him unique
5- Twilight Princess could have had a great story with Zant as the big villain he was originally portrayed to be and no mention of Ganondorf at all, rather than the complete turn around the game had halfway through and guest starring Ganondorf

So in your opinion, it basicly boils down to "Zant should have been a emotionless, sterile character with no development", which, considering that every other character in the game changes over the course of the game, would be a terrible decision.

Originally Posted by Darth Alec

The generic "I'm bad, don't care, handwaving mystical powers" character?

Nothing generic except for your simplified description

Now you are assuming that they had to change Zant's character to accomodate Ganondorf. For all we know, he could have been insane all along. And it is purely your opinion that Zant became lame because of his crazyness. Some people, me including, think that Zant became a much better character because of his fall from grace.

A fall from grace is good, turning into a whiny, infantile jester isn't

They aren't exactly the same, but Zant has no independant purpose. He has nothing without Ganondorf. Even if he did have something to call his own, his non-insane personality lacks in depth and interesting.

And if Ganondorf wasn't in the game, he would have had alot more development, a purpose and would not have to rely on another

"an impressive blade, but nothing else". Ganondorf wasn't so impressed by Link either.

There is more than just one shade to emotions you know, there is more than just "impressed"

{quote]Then again, why would a villain with no emotions be better then one with? [/quote]
If there was no Ganon, Zant would have had alot more development. Zant was good at hiding his emotions and they could be revealed at times when he is overwhelmed

I am certainly not saying that every insane person is the same. However, complete and total personality changes are common when people experience extremem trauma.

However Nintendo don't exactly treat mental states true to reality, they manipulate it to the story. Ilias amnesia could have never recovered you know.
Sure it may be possible for a complete personailty change when going insane but it doesn't have to happen, especially into what Zant did end up as

He has acted independently, but he is still one of Ganondorfs pawns.

Being used as a pawn does not make him a permanent pawn

Still wishes that made him redicilously overpowered. He literally took over the world by stealing a hat. Not a lot of work. Even TP Ganondorf had to do more.

He didn't take over the world

So in your opinion, it basicly boils down to "Zant should have been a emotionless, sterile character with no development",

Nothing at all like that, I am saying they should have worked on what he started off with as there was alot of potential. Just because I don't like such a good character turning into a worthless mess like that, doesn't mean I don't want any development

which, considering that every other character in the game changes over the course of the game, would be a terrible decision.

And yet none of them change at all the way Zant does