1:1 MotionPlus Combat in Zelda Wii?

Okay so I'm a fairly new member, but just taking a quick look through the threads, I noticed a lack of argument about a radically motion-controlled Zelda game.

I'm thinking 1:1 swordplay (you move, the sword moves), and a much higher level of motion control than we saw in Twilight Princess.

It seems to me that this change would be a lot bigger change than adding Voice-acting or even moving Zelda to a steampunk world (which seem to be the most controversial issues in this community), because it actually changes gameplay. But, I haven't noticed any heated debate on it.

Personally, I would love it, and have wanted that kind of control since I first played OoT, but what're the feelings of this community on that? -- because it's coming, and you all know it.

I think this would be freakin' sweet in the next Zelda game...If Miis can make this look awesome then Link should be beyond epic.

I'm feeling fairly ambivalent. I'd love it if it was introduced well, but TP was absolutely horrible at recognising your moments, shields and spins commonly being mistaken, and it had about half a second of lag compared to the input from a controller. I think the best option would be to allow support for multiple types of control, like Brawl and MKWii have had, but if the Motion Controls are much better done this time, I'm all for them.

Originally Posted by Crab Helmet

I'm feeling fairly ambivalent. I'd love it if it was introduced well, but TP was absolutely horrible at recognising your moments, shields and spins commonly being mistaken, and it had about half a second of lag compared to the input from a controller. I think the best option would be to allow support for multiple types of control, like Brawl and MKWii have had, but if the Motion Controls are much better done this time, I'm all for them.

That was because it wasn't using MotionPlus. If you've read the reviews of Tiger Woods 10, or the previews of Red Steel 2 or Wii Sports Resort, then you'd know that this [MotionPlus] might as well be called Wii 2, when it comes to the difference in control accuracy. And Miyamoto already said that the next game will use MotionPlus.

I've read their reviews, but I'd prefer to wait and see how the accuracy is for myself.

And Miyamoto said that, did he? Do you have a quote?

This shows how awesome 1:1 would be...with the player being shown. ROFL...the "survival" mode makes me laugh. The player is just slaughtering Miis left and right.

“The goal at this point is that we would make Wii MotionPlus required in order to play Zelda,” he said.

Source.

Whether it's required to play or not...Motion+ will be in it. They're still debating on whether it should be exclusive or not.

Originally Posted by Zeldablue777

This shows how awesome 1:1 would be...with the player being shown. ROFL...the "survival" mode makes me laugh. The player is just slaughtering Miis left and right.

Source.

Whether it's required to play or not...Motion+ will be in it. They're still debating on whether it should be exclusive or not.

Thanks Zeldablue, for the quote and the awesome videos.

So judging from both of your responses, it seems that some people are really excited about the prospect, and others aren't as interested.

I don't know, I don't think a lot of people on these forums realize how big of a shift is coming to Zelda, that has nothing to do with story or setting.

I'm against 1:1. It would be sloppy and awkward to fairly implement. I would like more control than TP, don't get me wrong, but 1:1 is too much.
I want it to read in 45 degree increments for slashes/chops and also the forward stab.

Originally Posted by Mandrag

I'm against 1:1. It would be sloppy and awkward to fairly implement. I would like more control than TP, don't get me wrong, but 1:1 is too much.
I want it to read in 45 degree increments for slashes/chops and also the forward stab.

Full 1:1 control would also necessitate some form of basic rag-doll engine in order to feel realistic, which I admit, could be a difficult prospect to implement well. Also, swordplay of any kind could require the camera to go to an over-the-shoulder viewpoint, or Link's becoming semi-transparent.

Over the shoulder:


And a transparent character:


I imagine the act of holding Z (Z targeting), would bring the traditional black bars, as well as zoom the camera in dramatically.

So I guess one way to express what we're talking about here is that it's basically a major revision to the Z-targeting system.

Link shall never go transparent...or go First Person. I think they can do it well with out changing Zelda's perfect camera angles. Look at the new Tiger Woods Game...the club matches perfectly with the player...but without the twitchy imperfections. They also retained the same camera view. I think Zelda can do something similar without having Link's body in the way of the camera...In the newer Zelda's the camera is usually quite a distance apart from Link anyways...

Would watching Link from a side view or front view ruin the 1:1 action...I don't really think so. I wouldn't get confused at least.

Originally Posted by Zeldablue777

Link shall never go transparent...or go First Person. I think they can do it well with out changing Zelda's perfect camera angles. Look at the new Tiger Woods Game...the club matches perfectly with the player...but without the twitchy imperfections. They also retained the same camera view. I think Zelda can do something similar without having Link's body in the way of the camera...In the newer Zelda's the camera is usually quite a distance apart from Link anyways...

Would watching Link from a side view or front view ruin the 1:1 action...I don't really think so. I wouldn't get confused at least.

The point of 1:1 control would be to connect the player with the character to a greater extent. For that illusion to be complete, the sword must be viewable, and when you move the controller, it must move in the same direction from the player's perspective. If Link was facing the camera, and then the player swung to the left, only to see Link swing to the right, I think it would disorient.

I agree that as long as the sword is long enough (not the Kokori sword), the traditional camera-distance from Link would probably work, but the camera must be behind Link during combat. But I don't know for sure. It certainly worked for Twilight Princess, but we're talking about a lot more specificity and finesse in the new Zelda, which a closer camera angle could definitely benefit.

Tiger Woods works because the golf club isn't blocked by Tiger's body, but a sword could be. You notice in disk golf, that the hand holding the disk is transparent.

The best solution (in my opinion) to this in Zelda is an over-the-shoulder Resident Evil 4 style viewpoint during Z-targeting. I agree that a transparent Link wouldn't feel right (and neither would a full first-person view), but you can see that that's obviously the route Nintendo chose to take with Wii Sports Swordplay (as well as Bowling), and they have more experience testing this than we do, just watching videos and playing finished products.

one thing that u could do w/ 1:1 is when u do a jump attack is not just a overhead swing, but other angles as well

I do really hope they don't put any unnecessary effort in creating an advanced and redundant Wii control motion feature. Zelda is special due to its remarkable gameplay and story, not because of some flashy movements.

The Wii controls where a bit funny in the beginning when playing wii sports, but now it's not that interesting anymore, and we certainly don't need anything over ambitious in a game like Zelda.

I think it could really result in some amazing action if done right, and I generally agree with the notion that an over-the-shoulder perspective would work best for it.

Edit:

Originally Posted by LupusX

I do really hope they don't put any unnecessary effort in creating an advanced and redundant Wii control motion feature. Zelda is special due to its remarkable gameplay and story, not because of some flashy movements.

The Wii controls where a bit funny in the beginning when playing wii sports, but now it's not that interesting anymore, and we certainly don't need anything over ambitious in a game like Zelda.

Actually, Lupus does make a good point, if implemented there is a chance that its use wouldn't really extend just pure flashiness, that it would only be for show. So, ummm, they'd actually have to somehow implement some sort of real use for it,somewhat like what's being done in Red Steel 2, really. Only in third-person.

Originally Posted by Zeldablue777

Link shall never go transparent...or go First Person. I think they can do it well with out changing Zelda's perfect camera angles. Look at the new Tiger Woods Game...the club matches perfectly with the player...but without the twitchy imperfections. They also retained the same camera view. I think Zelda can do something similar without having Link's body in the way of the camera...In the newer Zelda's the camera is usually quite a distance apart from Link anyways...

Would watching Link from a side view or front view ruin the 1:1 action...I don't really think so. I wouldn't get confused at least.

If it's not having the twitchy imperfections, then it's not 1:1. Understand that 1:1 means that every single movement in real life would be replicated exactly in the game.

I don't mind upgrading my controller for a big of extra fun. I just hope they don't try to use the next Zelda to push a whole new console. One Zelda game per console is not enough.

Originally Posted by Mandrag

If it's not having the twitchy imperfections, then it's not 1:1. Understand that 1:1 means that every single movement in real life would be replicated exactly in the game.

It's basically one to one...except all of your motions are translated into set animations. Sooo...Link can still do flashy crap without making me break my back or something.

The issue is, Zelda is not a combat-centric series. It's actually more of an adventure/puzzle-based series.

Dramatically changing the system just to enhance the combat (and it wouldn't be a total enhancement, as new flaws would present themselves), could hurt the overall gameplay.

For example, putting an over-shoulder view whenever you target would lead to some annoying complications. For one, the camera would zoom towards Link's shoulder and then quickly zoom out everytime you wanted to center the camera. For two, you wouldn't be able to efficiently attack enemies behind you.

Besides, I suck at games where the camera follows your movements so closely.

I'd be happy with direction-sensitive slashing. Remember, ZWii won't be WM+ exclusive unless they can fit it into areas which are more important than combat.

Originally Posted by Zeldablue777

It's basically one to one...except all of your motions are translated into set animations. Sooo...Link can still do flashy crap without making me break my back or something.

There's no "basically one to one". It's either 1:1 or it's not. What you suggested, and what I suggest, is that the series sticks with predefined motions that read specific swing types.

Originally Posted by Double A

The issue is, Zelda is not a combat-centric series. It's actually more of an adventure/puzzle-based series.

Dramatically changing the system just to enhance the combat (and it wouldn't be a total enhancement, as new flaws would present themselves), could hurt the overall gameplay.

For example, putting an over-shoulder view whenever you target would lead to some annoying complications. For one, the camera would zoom towards Link's shoulder and then quickly zoom out everytime you wanted to center the camera. For two, you wouldn't be able to efficiently attack enemies behind you.

Besides, I suck at games where the camera follows your movements so closely.

I'd be happy with direction-sensitive slashing. Remember, ZWii won't be WM+ exclusive unless they can fit it into areas which are more important than combat.

You bring up an interesting point, because there will be unexpected problems with any sort of change made to the gameplay mechanic. In addition to the example you pointed out, an over-the-shoulder targeting system could make attacking enemies shorter than Link difficult (including Cuckoos and *gasp* grass).

However, these kinds of problems will arise with any gameplay changes, and just because they exist, does not mean that there is no solution (the camera zoom-in could be context-sensitive, depending on the number and placement of the surrounding enemies), and nor does it mean that the potential problems of any gameplay change would necessarily outweigh the benefits.

You're correct that Zelda is more an adventure/puzzle game, but (and I might be opening Pandora's box here), the major significant gameplay difference between a game like Zelda and a traditional RPG like Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest is real-time combat.

So while I'd be the first to assert that the exploration and the quirks (like cutting grass or gliding with Cuckoos), are what make Zelda Zelda, you can't neglect the importance of combat, or the impact that Wii MotionPlus would have (a level of impact that would likely make the game MotionPlus exclusive).

In the scenario of an enemy approaching you from behind, the camera could automatically zoom-out slightly (enough to be able to see the enemy), then you (the player), would release Z, returning the camera to its normal perspective, where then you would turn Link around and either lock him onto the enemy behind, or simply slash without locking on, a near-1:1, angle sensitive swing.

I realize this contradicts my earlier post where I said that 1:1 swordplay when the camera was not directly behind Link would be disorienting, but I've changed my mind. In most situations, yes, it would be ideal if the camera was behind you. But there will always be that one time where it will be necessary to break this rule in order to keep the gameplay smooth.

And Mandrag, there can be near-1:1, depending on the definition. Here's mine, which you probably would be in support of (judging from your comments). When Link's sword is drawn and he is not moving, the sword would track with the movement of your arm in what is more or less "flash," but 1:1 flash that connects the player to Link. But when the player makes a slice, the game detects this, and a brief, angle-sensitive, preset animation takes over during the actual contact of the blade, and then the player again regains 1:1 for the "follow-through," much like Tiger Woods. In this way, the movement is 1:1 in every instance except for the brief moment when the sword actually makes contact. If done well, most people will never notice.

So I guess, in conclusion, I concede that angle-sensitive animations with 1:1 set-up and follow-through would be easier to implement than a totally free 1:1 blade.