Rrrromance?

Originally Posted by p0wnn00b

I really felt Zelda was dull in TP, almost pointless.

As did I. Then again, I felt this way about the majority of that game, so... take from that what you will.

Okay, hang on a second. I'm don't understand what you all mean by Link being more of a "man."

It just doesn't make sense. Why should he be any more "manly" than he already is. How old was he in TP? 17, 18? Maybe I'm misinformed. Also, I don't see why he should be much older to be classified as more of a "man." Also if you want to be technical, men aren't at psychological matured until 23, unless you mean this age. As for a physical maturity, well, it depends but a well massed man can be any age, depends on their training routine.

If you mean more "manly" in his personality, well thats Nintendo's fault. They keep trying to present a character that is shy, understanding and almost cute. IMO he should be more like a warrior, with a hardened look, troubled almost and throughout the next Zelda, his personal self should come a long way.

I also think they should fix his look up a bit. His look in TP didn't look like the best concept art.

I also think the MS looked too purple and maybe they should go for a more metallic, silver look for the MS next (the handle) or maybe go for a dark blue look, rather than purple, because the MS really looked out of place in comparison to the rest of the outfit.

Yes...by what I meant by being more manly is for an adult Link to be more mentally/sexually mature for a change. I think this could be resolved if this new adult Link is characterized more as a MAN that is more assertive and independently out spoken. In other words Nintendo needs to ditch the whole "shy & gentle spoken sweet heart who seems strangely awkward around females" thing if we are to believe this new adult Link has any hope of ever getting laid IMO.

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

Yes...by what I meant by being more manly is for an adult Link to be more mentally/sexually mature for a change. I think this could be resolved if this new adult Link is characterized more as a MAN that is more assertive and independently out spoken. In other words Nintendo needs to ditch the whole "shy & gentle spoken sweet heart who seems strangely awkward around females" thing if we are to believe this new adult Link has any hope of ever getting laid IMO.

I get it now, clearly, lol. You described it well really, interesting...

Ok, what I understand is if Nintendo did that, which I seriously hope they do, they also give him some sort of well-developed background story. On top of this, his character should develop throughout the game. Not just through the things he says to do with the main plot, but also the extra character side-quests that teach him things and stuff like that.

I could see that as awesomely epic. Why? Imagine if they made Link domineering to the point that he says himself that he is going to take down the main villain in the final showdown and really shows that he completely believes in himself. The sky is pitch black at the same time and the light provided are the torches from the town and there is lightning in the sky. He has like a special upgrade outfit to that of the ordinary green tunic with bits of metal, shoulder pads and other good things on it and he has a more hardened, serious look on his face. Maybe I went over the top, but I'd prefer that to TP Link.

Ganon the King, are you seriously wishing for Link's sword to match his outfit? Personally, I don't think it matters what color it is (hell, it could be hot pink for all I care) just as long as it kills enemies. Maybe it's just that you don't think purple is manly enough, which I can understand.

Originally Posted by Ganon the King

I get it now, clearly, lol. You described it well really, interesting...

Ok, what I understand is if Nintendo did that, which I seriously hope they do, they also give him some sort of well-developed background story. On top of this, his character should develop throughout the game. Not just through the things he says to do with the main plot, but also the extra character side-quests that teach him things and stuff like that.

I could see that as awesomely epic. Why? Imagine if they made Link domineering to the point that he says himself that he is going to take down the main villain in the final showdown and really shows that he completely believes in himself. The sky is pitch black at the same time and the light provided are the torches from the town and there is lightning in the sky. He has like a special upgrade outfit to that of the ordinary green tunic with bits of metal, shoulder pads and other good things on it and he has a more hardened, serious look on his face. Maybe I went over the top, but I'd prefer that to TP Link.

this is not a good idea, first and foremost, Link is supposed to be an extension of YOU, hence his name is Link (that's the official reason for his stupid name ). If Link becomes his own autonomous character, you would lose a big part of that personal feel of the game, which is signature to LoZ.

Though I understand where you guys are coming from, when I first played OoT I always thought Link mirrored my own personality (he was mostly a reactive character who only did things proactive when you were controlling him, the things he did that were out of my control, I would have done anyway, because when I played OoT I was a soft spoken person and was very passive), but when I played TP, sometimes Link felt annoying at how weak he acted, and how he let people walk all over him.

Its because we ourselves have personally grown to be more forward, but making Link the same way isn't a good idea. Link needs to be a reactive character that we choose what he should proactive on, so that we can put ourselves in his shoes. He shouldn't take incentive (in things people naturally wouldn't take incentive in) on his own, which is why I think they made helper characters more and more important (your helper is taking incentive, not you).

However, Link IS an adult now, so I think they'll give the character more confidence.

I never saw any of the 3D Links as me ever. To me Link is no more or less an avatar than Mario is IMO. I never bought into this silent protagonist automatically equals avatar nonsense since Mario is a silent protagonist and is never considered as an avatar. I think the reason OOT, WW, and TP Link are never portrayed as Cassanova/Romeo types is because their in game character/personalities don't fit that concept at all in the first place. I think the new Wii Zelda game with a more mature Link with less boyish innocence will make more sense to having Link finally paired up with someone IMO.

Originally Posted by rageagainst

this is not a good idea, first and foremost, Link is supposed to be an extension of YOU, hence his name is Link (that's the official reason for his stupid name ). If Link becomes his own autonomous character, you would lose a big part of that personal feel of the game, which is signature to LoZ.

Though I understand where you guys are coming from, when I first played OoT I always thought Link mirrored my own personality (he was mostly a reactive character who only did things proactive when you were controlling him, the things he did that were out of my control, I would have done anyway, because when I played OoT I was a soft spoken person and was very passive), but when I played TP, sometimes Link felt annoying at how weak he acted, and how he let people walk all over him.

Its because we ourselves have personally grown to be more forward, but making Link the same way isn't a good idea. Link needs to be a reactive character that we choose what he should proactive on, so that we can put ourselves in his shoes. He shouldn't take incentive (in things people naturally wouldn't take incentive in) on his own, which is why I think they made helper characters more and more important (your helper is taking incentive, not you).

However, Link IS an adult now, so I think they'll give the character more confidence.

You contradicted yourself. If he is supposed to be an extension of us then why develop his character at all? And this is all your opinion, I don't like the fact that you think your opinion is universal.

By the way, just so you know, even with the way Link is now I don't have "personal feel" to the game. And I can bet that a lot of people feel the same way including Ganonslayer2000.

I find it actually quite stupid that anyone would argue that Link should be our extension. Why? Because no one can feel attached to a character that is an "EXTENSION." It isn't right for a character to just stand there and everyone else not even notice him. Its a waste of character space. I don't feel that I AM Link. I am not... clearly... and I'm not going to pretend to be a character I'm not. Instead I want to learn about the character of Link. What TP did well was, do exactly this but only when it came to the cutscenes not involving Midna (where she hid in Link's shadow the way she should have ALWAYS) like the scenes with saving Colin, the ones involving the children/Illia etc. Those scenes directly involved Link and you sort of get a glimpse into his development... but not really. He failed absolutely in any important scene that involved Midna.

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

I never saw any of the 3D Links as me ever. To me Link is no more or less an avatar than Mario is IMO. I never bought into this silent protagonist automatically equals avatar nonsense since Mario is a silent protagonist and is never considered as an avatar. I think the reason OOT, WW, and TP Link are never portrayed as Cassanova/Romeo types is because their in game character/personalities don't fit that concept at all in the first place. I think the new Wii Zelda game with a more mature Link with less boyish innocence will make more sense to having Link finally paired up with someone IMO.

Also they need to take an art style where he doesn't look like a happy little mushroom kid. Because thats what he looked like in TP - a happy mushroom kid and he didn't have that serious quality about him that he had in the artwork.

And yes, I never saw them as me either. Which I explained above.

If Miyamoto thinks his games are going to keep being successful by continuing to keep Link simple as "EXTENSION" then his games will FAIL. TP is the strongest example of this. Why did something feel missing? Apart from side-quests, it was Link's personality and development was missing, as was Zeldas and Ganondorfs. TP could have been achieved full success if Nintendo put in the work to making him a developed character.

Though I think Link started out as an avatar in the early days, Link became a character when LA was released and on the start of the 3D era. If the great god Miyamoto is so concerned about Link being an avatar, then a decisions with consequences aspect that would literally allow the player to choose who Link ends up with romantically would solve that problem. Until then Link is more character and less avatar IMO.

I voted Kissing, but nothing more then a shy peck on the cheek. I think if a defined romance is going to happen, Zelda should be Link's love interest, but in later games maybe a girl who, you know, isn't Zelda should be Link's girl.

I voted "kissing - why stop there?" because, let's face it people, it's time for adult Link to start acting like a fully matured adult. It was only "cute" when Link was a kid. Link being in a relationship with someone, Zelda or some random girl, will add to the depth of his character more and will make the journey a bit more on a personal level, rather than just fighting for a whole country. I just hope Nintendo is considering something akin to this.

Originally Posted by Ganon the King

I find it actually quite stupid that anyone would argue that Link should be our extension. Why? Because no one can feel attached to a character that is an "EXTENSION." It isn't right for a character to just stand there and everyone else not even notice him. Its a waste of character space. I don't feel that I AM Link. I am not... clearly... and I'm not going to pretend to be a character I'm not. Instead I want to learn about the character of Link. What TP did well was, do exactly this but only when it came to the cutscenes not involving Midna (where she hid in Link's shadow the way she should have ALWAYS) like the scenes with saving Colin, the ones involving the children/Illia etc. Those scenes directly involved Link and you sort of get a glimpse into his development... but not really. He failed absolutely in any important scene that involved Midna.

Umm in the large scope of things it doesn't matter if you didn't feel feel like you were in Link's shoes, and if you think that Link should be a full blown character... because Link is quite obviously designed to be an avatar of the player. From "here":http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=84703

Miyamoto's idea is.. to give the player a more impacting experience and really feel Link's journey through the game, by creating memories of the characters you meet and things you face along the way. These would be things that would differ for each person as they play their own way through, so everyone would have unique memories. How you approach a dungeon, solve a puzzle, or complete a side quest all add to this.

There's a reason Link doesn't talk (unless you are telling him what to say), there's a reason Link has never taken much incentive in doing things himself, and is usually following his helper, Zelda, or deku tree. If Link did something that most people wouldn't normally do, it would make it seem like the player isn't really playing Link, which is quite clearly the purpose of restricting Link's character so much.

There was a dev quote about what I'm about to say, but I can' find it... but they said that everyone's Zelda experience is their own and has their own unique touch but they're still experiencing the same game and narrative (unlike a game like Fable).

Then why isn't Mario considered an avatar since he never speaks either?? I'm getting a double standard here.

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

Then why isn't Mario considered an avatar since he never speaks either?? I'm getting a double standard here.

.... he is?

Miyamato (can't spell his name) said that the mario franchise wasn't suited to having a story (hence the next galaxy game won't) because the players are supposed to make their own stories, interacting with their environments. I don't think mario has a personality at all in Mario 64 or Mario Galaxy.

Oh and I found that quote I was looking for, from the latest nintendo power http://www.zeldauniverse.net/zelda-n...to/#more-6245:

Miyamoto: Every person’s own individual experiences with the game should be unique and [be] their own sort of “My Zelda” experience, and I think that’s super important, and we have to look at that when we’re creating dungeons and how we can make that come true. So spending a lot of time concentrating our efforts in that area. But it’s not going to become individual: “Hi, I’m this Zelda!” or “I’m this Zelda!” or “I’m this Link!” or whatever. The experience will be unique but within this world that we’ve defined.

and this also, from here, from 2007: http://www.thehylia.com/index.php?su..._from=&ucat=19

Aonuma: When a player is playing a Zelda game, my desire is for the player to truly become Link -- that's why we named him Link, so the player is linked to the game and to the experience. Of course, the player can always change Link's name to their own name to further that notion should they want.

Still..Aunoma and Miyamoto are just simply contradicting themselves since.

A. You can't customize Link's physical appearance the same way as you can with avatars in games like Wii sports, GTA, WoW, Morrowind, Fable ect ect.

B. The 3D Links already have set backgrounds and character traits hardly any different from Mario, Kratos from God of War, Prince of Persia, Master Chief from Halo, the guy on Assassins Creed ect ect.

So what I'm trying to say here is that the makers at Nintendo are contradicting the core definition of what an avatar really is supposed to be. I think the early 2D Links are true avatars by definition. The 3D Links are more of a hybrid avatar/character hardly any different from the examples I already gave. But the 3D Links are clearly not pure avatars according to the dictionary/wikipedia definitions IMO.

not more than flirting..i'd say...don't ruin the traditions

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

Still..Aunoma and Miyamoto are just simply contradicting themselves since.

A. You can't customize Link's physical appearance the same way as you can with avatars in games like Wii sports, GTA, WoW, Morrowind, Fable ect ect.

B. The 3D Links already have set backgrounds and character traits hardly any different from Mario, Kratos from God of War, Prince of Persia, Master Chief from Halo, the guy on Assassins Creed ect ect.

So what I'm trying to say here is that the makers at Nintendo are contradicting the core definition of what an avatar really is supposed to be. I think the early 2D Links are true avatars by definition. The 3D Links are more of a hybrid avatar/character hardly any different from the examples I already gave. But the 3D Links are clearly not pure avatars according to the dictionary/wikipedia definitions IMO.

Well of course they aren't 100% avatars, if they were a grand story arch would be difficult to do, and there would be no way for you to do direct sequels, where a character who starred in a previous game stars in the next. And Link IS a character to some extent as he does some things out of your control, but he is still nothing like say, the prince of persia guy. If the main char of LoZ was your actual avatar, the game would be more like Fable, where you didn't have to follow a storyline, but since you control a character instead of an avatar, in LoZ you follow a set storyline.

But Link is nothing like the prince of persia guy because there are many steps taken in order for the player to feel like Link, most noteably Link's lack of any speaking parts, other than what you choose him to say. Link also NEVER takes incentive to do something most people wouldn't naturally do if they were the HoT, he's almost completely a reactive character. Basically they chose to make him as he is so that you can be a part of the storyline, but not necessarily create one yourself like in Fable. But he IS still a character, and Miyamato hints that the experiences he encounters are related to his age and things like that, so that's why I said there's room to make the character Link more forward in the next game (which would be basically assuming the player is a more forward person, than a person that can identify with the previous incarnations of Link)

EDIT: oh yeah, you can customize Link's avatar slightly (giving him your name)

Originally Posted by rageagainst

And Link IS a character to some extent as he does some things out of your control, but he is still nothing like say, the prince of persia guy. If the main char of LoZ was your actual avatar, the game would be more like Fable, where you didn't have to follow a storyline, but since you control a character instead of an avatar, in LoZ you follow a set storyline.

Basically they chose to make him as he is so that you can be a part of the storyline, but not necessarily create one yourself like in Fable. But he IS still a character, and Miyamato hints that the experiences he encounters are related to his age and things like that, so that's why I said there's room to make the character Link more forward in the next game (which would be basically assuming the player is a more forward person, than a person that can identify with the previous incarnations of Link)

Thank you. I think we see eye to eye on agreement with this issue now.

Hmmm, I completely forgot what I was going to say. =\

Something like..."Oh, I like Link's innocence." Well, whatever. A more adult Link needs to act more adult...

In Majora's Mask I felt that Link was more like an experienced adult in a kid's body. (Like the opposite of OoT's kid inside an adult) Maybe it was just me, but other characters respected him more than they did in OoT...and Link in general acted very different from his limited personality in OoT. One of my favorite scenes in MM is when you help Cremia (3 times in a row) and she shoves Link's face into her chest. It's hilarious.

You did it! You helped Cremia!

You feel all warm and fuzzy!
inside! Sigh...
You could get used to this!

Just because you're ten...that doesn't mean you can't be a pervert or whatever. I remember the 5th grade, those boys were baaaad. >_>

^Indeed, Link was much more emotionally and sexually mature, despite not being much older, if any, than he was at the beginning of OoT. Then again, the kind of dark and mature themes set forth in MM have really yet to make their return. They were definitely a little more pronounced in TP, but not nearly as well executed as in MM I think.

I think that if they caught the same mature atmosphere of MM, only this time with an adult Link, that a relationship would be almost necessary to complement the game and flesh those themes out even further.