Rrrromance?

Originally Posted by Shinespark

You, sir, have just pointed out the fundamental element of Zelda, which makes any argument dealing with change an exercise in futility. How does one progress and change a game whose very core and essence is the idea that the player has their experience through the protagonist? Would not any change be a way of forcing the player into feeling or thinking something they may not want to about the game?

But then if a series does not change, how can it possibly continue itself and draw new fans? It cannot perpetuate itself into monotony, for no new fans would be drawn to it, and old ones would be alienated.

How, then, does one both honour the essence of the game, and recognize the need for change? Would not the act of one compromise the other? It is a dilemma. One which I still have found no real solution for.

a true catch-22

I chose "Kissing? Why stop there?" I do not mean like show full on sex scenes where Link is getting raped by Twinrova (Ewwww...), but like in the TP credits. It is implied that Yeta and Yeto are having sex.

Originally Posted by Shinespark

You, sir, have just pointed out the fundamental element of Zelda, which makes any argument dealing with change an exercise in futility. How does one progress and change a game whose very core and essence is the idea that the player has their experience through the protagonist? Would not any change be a way of forcing the player into feeling or thinking something they may not want to about the game?

But then if a series does not change, how can it possibly continue itself and draw new fans? It cannot perpetuate itself into monotony, for no new fans would be drawn to it, and old ones would be alienated.

How, then, does one both honour the essence of the game, and recognize the need for change? Would not the act of one compromise the other? It is a dilemma. One which I still have found no real solution for.

What change does it stunt simply besides that of Link's independent character and the romantic development?

The world around it can change while the idea of the player being Link remains; I've always argued that and worked towards developing it in my own stories where the world around is changed, that element remains the same but so many other things are improved and changed...

Even so it doesn't have to fully stunt the romantic aspect. The simple answer would be being able to develop each relation in game seperatly to the players own whims (not dependant on gaining hearts or items or advising the story) though, that would remain difficult with characters such as Zelda whom is a central character.

My point is that one point is not a fundamental flaw that hinders change, but the mentality of traditionalism in the Zelda series seems to be.

Originally Posted by BEHIND THE MASK

What change does it stunt simply besides that of Link's independent character and the romantic development?

The world around it can change while the idea of the player being Link remains; I've always argued that and worked towards developing it in my own stories where the world around is changed, that element remains the same but so many other things are improved and changed...

True, true.

My point is that one point is not a fundamental flaw that hinders change, but the mentality of traditionalism in the Zelda series seems to be.

Unfortunately, it is that point which breeds that mentality.

Originally Posted by itz tw

I chose "Kissing? Why stop there?" I do not mean like show full on sex scenes where Link is getting raped by Twinrova (Ewwww...), but like in the TP credits. It is implied that Yeta and Yeto are having sex.

and the AOL ending right shinespark

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

Evil villians need servants. even majora had one

It's different with Majora. Skull Kid was possessed that made Majora's Mask pretty much the standalone villain.

Originally Posted by Erikson

It's different with Majora. Skull Kid was possessed that made Majora's Mask pretty much the standalone villain.

we're trying to stay away from things like this so let's not argue

Originally Posted by Shinespark

Unfortunately, it is that point which breeds that mentality.

In some cases perhaps, others not so much...

I mean look at me! I stick to the that veiw of the player as Link! I also want to add musketry, deeper storyline, some adult elemetns, darker setting!

People are conflicted over whether I'm a traditionalist or just a complete a--hole

But ultimately, what should be worried about is whether the makers of the game stick to that mentality.

Originally Posted by BEHIND THE MASK

I've always supported the sentiment that the player is Link and that they should be able to 'come up' with the pairings come the end of the game...

In this way I find that while options of romance become limited and more so hinted at, it does allow the player to submerge themselves more in the game...

But in respect of Zelda, I do believe that her position among the love interests in one that has been somewhat, overlooked and missed out upon, except in some titles.

So while I do like the current 'romance' system in the games (such as OOT) I do feel that the process needs reform.

Agreed. That's why I support a future Zelda game, with a mature Link of course, that literally allows the player to decide who he ends up with. I never really liked the generally accepted avatar concept in Zelda. Take OOT for example in which players have a lame excuse to come up with corny nonsensical fanfic assumptions that Link is this hornball that wants to get it on with a preferred love interest. When it comes to Zelink, how can anybody think that OOT Link, who is basically a sexually innocent child in heart and mind, is madly in love with Zelda? In all the so called EMOTIONAL Zelink moments, he just stands there at a considerable distance with a silly looking blank expression being all quietly creepy in just staring at Zelda.

I agree with ganon

Though when he grew up he probably went for malon instead of zelda

Originally Posted by BEHIND THE MASK

In some cases perhaps, others not so much...

I mean look at me! I stick to the that veiw of the player as Link! I also want to add musketry, deeper storyline, some adult elemetns, darker setting!

I agree with all of the above. I too want all of these elements, whilst still wishing for Link to remain an avatar of the player. Although, I wouldn't mind Zelda breaking out of the box just one time and having Link fully voiced (and by that, I do mean I support voice acting, even outside of this one game).

People are conflicted over whether I'm a traditionalist or just a complete a--hole

Though my interactions with you have been few, I must say, I've never found you to be an a**hole.

But ultimately, what should be worried about is whether the makers of the game stick to that mentality.

Indeed.

See, it's hard for me to see Link anymore as the "avatar of the player" in really any of the 3D games, most notably Wind Waker and TP. He seemed to have just as much if not more character than other video game characters, and he certainly has more character than Mario, who is not considered any kind of avatar, as far as I know.

What people have done to Link to try and cling to that supposition, you can do with basically any fictional character--it's just easier to do so when the guy doesn't talk (which I think is no longer needed, they need to get rid of that--but that's for another thread).

This said, I really don't think, with a few upgrades, as I'll call them, to Link's character that him seeking a deeper romantic relationship could be so out of context.

Speaking would be an improvement. And it would really help with the emotional scenes. At least we'd be able to feel Link's pain or happiness or whatever when he reacts to something in game.

I couldn't imagine a game that goes further than hugging or holding hands... though yeah I could, if the only romantic moment in the game was a kiss then it wouldn't overload the small romance meter in LoZ, but it wouldn't mushy up the game either.

Maybe they'd kiss fior the first time at the end?

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

Speaking would be an improvement. And it would really help with the emotional scenes. At least we'd be able to feel Link's pain or happiness or whatever when he reacts to something in game.

Actually..there are plenty of examples of Link having emotional reactions in all the 3D Zelda games. Remember in OOT how many times Link had a shocked reaction? But when it came to being around females he was just a shy and timid boy with that signature creepy blank stare of his.

WW Link had obvious reactions when he got back his sword at the Forsaken Fortress or when his sister got kidnapped in the beginning. And TP had plenty of moments with Link having emotional reactions as well.

When Twinrova turned into their 2nd form Link turned red and did the same ole' :O expression. I always laughed at that. Oh yeah, and something I wanted to bring up before...don't teenage hormones > child mind?

About Twilight Princess Link...I remember Eiji Aonuma being interviewed about his character...

–His face also changes when he opens a treasure chest, depending on the item inside (laughs). By the way, in this game Link’s 16 years old, right?

Aonuma: Being 16 years old is right before turning into an adult. The TV ad of the disc system game Adventure of Link said, “16 years [I have no idea of the context, so that’s just my guess],” so now Link’s 16 years old (laughs).

Both: (laugh)

Aonuma: At that age you’ve matured a little, and if your parents tell you not to do something, you go and do right the opposite. That’s why Link turns his sword when fighting an enemy.

–He provokes his enemies.

Aonuma: That move reflects Link’s mischievous side, and he shows some style when he overuses his physical strength.

–I think I’ve seen that in an old American movie...

Aonuma: Exactly! To me, it’s like George Chakiris from West Side Story (a musical film from 1961; George Chakiris had the role of the leader of the villains). The origin of those elements is old, but I asked the staff to include them.

Lol...I think it's funny when the developers talk about something "western" and I have no clue what they're talking about. xD

Darn it Eiji...I always said Link was 17 years old. AHH! He's the same age as me! O.o

Originally Posted by Zeldablue777

When Twinrova turned into their 2nd form Link turned red and did the same ole' :O expression. I always laughed at that. Oh yeah, and something I wanted to bring up before...don't teenage hormones > child mind?

LOL!! I thought that Twinrova reaction was funny too. I agree that PHYSICALLY, Adult OOT Link is proven to have hormonal reactions with Twinrova and Ruto. But I still think he would be a shy and timid little boy in a REAL sexual situation even if he physically can get a rock hard boner.

Why shouldn't Link have a bit of romance? Doesn't have to be shown properly either.

I think anyone who is totally against it is overreacting slightly.

^^I still think if the next Zelda game portrayed Link more as a MAN and not the same old pure hearted boy or shy teenage eternal virgin who seems vague on his own sexuality, a realistic romance for Link would make perfect sense.