Zelda Wii and a 'broader audience'.

How would a 'mature' game be a change? Almost all the Zelda games are 'mature.' After all, TP was the first Zelda game with a T rating.

The thing is, I don't think you quite understand what a good game is. Accessibility is what turns a good game into a great one. That is why Nintendo has so much success. They cater to both crowds. Their games are finely designed for 'hardcore' and 'casual' gamers alike. To cast aside this accessibility is to cast aside what makes a good game.

When I was a seven year old...Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask were pretty scary. If I was still a seven year old, Twilight Princess would probably be too much for me. Granted, I was raised on Resident Evil and Mortal Kombat, but Zelda games have a really big creep factor and you have to take graphics into consideration. 64 pixels aren't quite as scary as...whatever Zelda runs on now. 256?

Originally Posted by Zeldablue777

64 pixels aren't quite as scary as...whatever Zelda runs on now. 256?

You mean bits. Bits really don't mean **** anymore. They never really did. All they were were buzzwords for PR folks and system fanboys to throw around.

But if you want me to answer your question literally, TP runs at a resolution of 640x480. That's 640 pixels for each column and 480 pixels for each row. So TP runs at 307,200 pixels.

Originally Posted by JSnake

How would a 'mature' game be a change? Almost all the Zelda games are 'mature.' After all, TP was the first Zelda game with a T rating.

The thing is, I don't think you quite understand what a good game is. Accessibility is what turns a good game into a great one. That is why Nintendo has so much success. They cater to both crowds. Their games are finely designed for 'hardcore' and 'casual' gamers alike. To cast aside this accessibility is to cast aside what makes a good game.

A good game is one with a lot of thought put into every aspect. Twilight Princess had the same formula as OoT. That's hardly thoughtful. Also, the dungeons toward the end were unpolished. I've never been in a dungeon as bland as TP's Temple of Time (unless you count Twilight Palace).

And rating is irrelevant when considering a game's maturity. TP hardly had anything in terms of T material. Where was the violence? It was no more violent than OoT and Majora's Mask. Where was the blood? Don't say "on the gate to Kakariko", as that is the worst "blood" I've ever seen. You also might bring up the matter of Rusl being covered in blood, but how many people actually go out of their way just to see some guy covered in blood?

Originally Posted by IkanaGeneral197

A good game is one with a lot of thought put into every aspect. Twilight Princess had the same formula as OoT. That's hardly thoughtful. Also, the dungeons toward the end were unpolished. I've never been in a dungeon as bland as TP's Temple of Time (unless you count Twilight Palace).

They refined upon the foundation they had previously built. If they hadn't put a lot of thought into TP, well it wouldn't have turned out the way it had. The fact that you say the later dungeons are unpolished is a testament to your ignorance of proper game design. From a game design standpoint, the dungeons were masterpieces and easily the best in the series. Say what you want about the Sky Temple's aesthetics, but it was amazing when you look at with proper knowledge of game design.

Also what kind of 'mature' are you looking for? Do you mean tons of guts, blood, swearing, etc?

We only have to look at Phantom Hourglass to make a fairly good prediction about how the new Zelda might play. After all, Phantom Hourglass was clearly designed with the "wider audience" in mind - as evidenced in the commercials and the press statements ("from the makers of Animal Crossing").

The game was a lot more accessible than any other Zelda (mainly because of the controls), and the puzzles were more like brain teasers than traditional Zelda puzzles (probably to appeal to the Brain Training/Professor Layton crowd).

The approach was fairly successful and they made a lot of new fans, which is no doubt why they've decided to replicate it in Spirit Tracks. I imagine that their approach to Wii Zelda will be much the same.

Originally Posted by IkanaGeneral197

A good game is one with a lot of thought put into every aspect. Twilight Princess had the same formula as OoT. That's hardly thoughtful. Also, the dungeons toward the end were unpolished. I've never been in a dungeon as bland as TP's Temple of Time (unless you count Twilight Palace).

And rating is irrelevant when considering a game's maturity. TP hardly had anything in terms of T material. Where was the violence? It was no more violent than OoT and Majora's Mask. Where was the blood? Don't say "on the gate to Kakariko", as that is the worst "blood" I've ever seen. You also might bring up the matter of Rusl being covered in blood, but how many people actually go out of their way just to see some guy covered in blood?

WW had the same formula as OOT to and OOT really just copied ALTTP's formula when you think about it. The TOT and TP were some of the coolest dungeons in the game. And you want new dungeons? TP had several dungeons(really only the one's in the mirror of twilight portion) that weren't the standard fire, forest, water dungeons. TOT's overall puzzle was very creative and made good use of the item you obtained. It's not because the graphics are weaker but i still don't see how MM was dark?

Jsnake makes a good point what qualifies as mature to you?

Originally Posted by JSnake

They refined upon the foundation they had previously built. If they hadn't put a lot of thought into TP, well it wouldn't have turned out the way it had. The fact that you say the later dungeons are unpolished is a testament to your ignorance of proper game design. From a game design standpoint, the dungeons were masterpieces and easily the best in the series. Say what you want about the Sky Temple's aesthetics, but it was amazing when you look at with proper knowledge of game design.

Also what kind of 'mature' are you looking for? Do you mean tons of guts, blood, swearing, etc?

The City in the Sky was an exception. Other than that, the last few dungeons were chaff.

Mature? I want things to happen to the game world that would cause real grief among NPCs. Being enveloped in a dark world and turned into ghosts isn't all that bad. On the other hand, Kafei from MM was turned into a child as he was about to marry Anju - all part of a possesed Skull Kid's sadistic plan.

You don't call ralis losing his mom, the gorons losing their patriarch, and the ordonians losing their children bad thing that happen to the NPC's. What about Midna being stripped of her true form and llia losing her memory? the city in the sky is just your opinion. i thought every one of the mirror shard dungeons was a nice change of pace from the sterotypical elemental themes.

Originally Posted by Zeldablue777

When I was a seven year old...Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask were pretty scary. If I was still a seven year old, Twilight Princess would probably be too much for me.

I just don't understand how some people (kids) think Zelda is scary, but I guess I can imagine... somehow. Anyway, just because a Zelda game is/would be accessible, it doesn't automatically mean that the seriousness would be cast aside.

WW looked like a cartoon but had a pretty serious storyline.

Originally Posted by Meeps

We only have to look at Phantom Hourglass to make a fairly good prediction about how the new Zelda might play. After all, Phantom Hourglass was clearly designed with the "wider audience" in mind - as evidenced in the commercials and the press statements ("from the makers of Animal Crossing").

The game was a lot more accessible than any other Zelda (mainly because of the controls), and the puzzles were more like brain teasers than traditional Zelda puzzles (probably to appeal to the Brain Training/Professor Layton crowd).

The approach was fairly successful and they made a lot of new fans, which is no doubt why they've decided to replicate it in Spirit Tracks. I imagine that their approach to Wii Zelda will be much the same.

*shrugs* Or they could take the Mario Galaxy 2 approach and make it harder because they expect the players to be more experienced now.

Miyamoto has stated that Mario Galaxy 2 is being aimed at more experienced gamers since he's expecting most new gamers to be better at playing video games now, and of course if you played Mario Galaxy 1 then now you're familiar with the mechanics and should be ready for a greater challenge. Spirit Tracks might do something similar to that since it is following up on Phantom Hourglass' success with both old and new audiences, but hey I could be wrong. Might still be pretty similar to PH, which would be no problem to me since I loved PH. Hell, I love all Zelda games! (minus CD-i of course, those games are only good for parody because of how bad they are.)

Originally Posted by Senap

I just don't understand how some people (kids) think Zelda is scary, but I guess I can imagine... somehow. Anyway, just because a Zelda game is/would be accessible, it doesn't automatically mean that the seriousness would be cast aside.

WW looked like a cartoon but had a pretty serious storyline.

Bottom of the Well and the Shadow Temple scared me when I played OoT for the first time at age 8. Woodfall Temple in MM creeped me out at age 10 because the music gave me serious chills when I first entered the dungeon at midnight, all alone.

Bottom of the Well and Shadow Temple are still some of the darker temples in the whole series, in my opinion. They have some pretty dark histories behind them, and these temples made me surprised they got away with an E rating judging by all the blood you see next to these structures that resemble torture devices.

Originally Posted by TravisTouchdown

Bottom of the Well and Shadow Temple are still some of the darker temples in the whole series, in my opinion. They have some pretty dark histories behind them

Absolutely. Though I think Arbiter's Ground comes pretty close. The design of that one, together with all the ghosts, skeletons,the old school Zelda puzzles (hidden passages in the walls/floor for instance) and the dark history (it being an ancient Hyrule prison) got me very excited.

I can totally imagine that one giving nightmares to the younger fans

Originally Posted by Senap

Absolutely. Though I think Arbiter's Ground comes pretty close. The design of that one, together with all the ghosts, skeletons,the old school Zelda puzzles (hidden passages in the walls/floor for instance) and the dark history (it being an ancient Hyrule prison) got me very excited.

I can totally imagine that one giving nightmares to the younger fans

Heh heh, I love Arbiter's Ground. One of my favorite dungeons in TP (I alternate between "dungeon" and "temple" a lot when referring to "levels" in the Zelda games since it's just something I've always done), and plus the boss battle was a fun one. My least favorite is Lakebed Temple. I don't know why, but the water themed temples are always my least favorite in any Zelda game. (note I'm only referring to water temples, not the overworlds since I love WW and PH.) Hmm... well except maybe Great Bay Temple from MM. I love pretty much everything about MM (it's still my favorite game today).

Why are the boss's lairs called dungeons anyway? Most MMO's use that word too. Do they like, not know what a dungeon is? I prefer temple, if it is one, or if it's not, then 'lair'.

My favorite boss lair from any zelda game is probably Arbiter's grounds from TP, or TP's temple of Time. My least favorite is probably the Eastern Temple from ALttP. It had no originality.

Originally Posted by Valhelm

Why are the boss's lairs called dungeons anyway? Most MMO's use that word too. Do they like, not know what a dungeon is? I prefer temple, if it is one, or if it's not, then 'lair'.

My favorite boss lair from any zelda game is probably Arbiter's grounds from TP, or TP's temple of Time. My least favorite is probably the Eastern Temple from ALttP. It had no originality.

I blame Dungeons & Dragons, but I'm not sure that's the reason why dungeon is used so often. For Zelda I usually say "temple".

Btw, does anyone know if Zelda start the whole deal with "Temples/Dungeon/instances" inside an open world? Or were there other games before it with the same formula?

Originally Posted by Navi says Hey!

I blame Dungeons & Dragons, but I'm not sure that's the reason why dungeon is used so often. For Zelda I usually say "temple".

That's most likely where the Zelda "dungeon" term came from. I dislike saying temple, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I immediately think of OoT fanboys. After all, everyone (new fans) began with temple this and temple that after OoT.

Originally Posted by Navi says Hey!

Btw, does anyone know if Zelda start the whole deal with "Temples/Dungeon/instances" inside an open world? Or were there other games before it with the same formula?

I'm pretty sure there were games before Zelda that used a similar concept.

Meh, I say dungeon or level... I would only say Temple if the level is actually a temple, because I can't stand it when people call places like Snowpeak Mansion a temple... -.-

In terms of darkness in the next Zelda, storywise...I think the next story should be about as dark as a Disney movie. Now before you yell at me, saying that's kiddy, don't. Disney story's like Lion King, completely fit for a child audience, but still capable of making a grown adult cry. xD I don't want to see anyone die in the next Zelda, unless they have a good importance, character development and back story. That's a broad audience right there, like the movie "Up" (I didn't like it that much but) it dealt with sad lessons about life, even though the kiddies wouldn't really get it.

Broad is sometimes pretty good. I definitely don't want the next Zelda to be dark 24/7...I want balance. I wanna have mah super happy time and a oh noez, my life sucks time. Sometimes, especially in MM I feel trapped in dispair, because no matter what I'm still going to die in 74 hours. >_<

wow im not so sure about all the hype for zelda wii, but i still think it will be great. im not dying for it but i want it i guess.

It really annoys me when people call the mansion a temple or dungeon. To me, it's just a mansion.


By the way, did any of you guys ever play the million minigames in TP? I played 'em each a few times, but I got bored of them.