Zelda: Reboot

Originally Posted by Darth Alec

Maybe you should play the game again and just play it. It seems like you came here and started hating the game for exagerated flaws and other issues most people didn't care about while playing the game.

I'm still not sure why people call TP bad.

What are you talking about? The only thing I'm complaining about is that Link is lifeless. When did I say or show I hated anything? What flaws am I exaggerating?

I agree with get rid of the "lore" that OOT introduced. I would rather fight Ganon in every game than have to deal with Gorons/Zoras. Also, get rid of musical instruments for a long time, unless it is part of a minigame. Finally, level Hyrule Temple. We've heard enough about the master sword for a lifetime already. If you get rid of those things and come up with new gameplay ideas, you would have a good reboot in my opinion.

Let me make my position on this matter solid. I am attempting to write this with a clear mind, as all you reformists are beginning to annoy me.

Firstly, I am not anti-story.

Originally Posted by IGNIS, from the Design-a-Boss thread, announcing the results

4. Cursed Puppetmaster: STALREX by Double A

This Cursed Puppetmaster would be the offering of a bizarre challenge, embellished with doomed spirits. Stalrex, whose background is one of the most intriguing stories, needs to be dealt with in a very methodical fashion. Using the magic lantern to dispel any shrouding or illusion, Link fights this tricky boss in a series of phases that increase the difficulty of the challenge as the Cursed Puppetmaster is weakened. One of the stronger concepts achieving Effort. (One of Judge's favorite*)

As you can see, I actually encourage a good storyline. All I ask is that it doesn't become the center of the gameplay, that it doesn't control or limit your gameplay, and that it isn't too deep to the point of "OMG IM LOST" (a-la Metal Gear).

My point is that, whenever you're fighting a boss, traversing through a dungeon or just plain exploring Hyrule, the deepest storyline with the greatest Voice Acting doesn't do Jack sh** to make the overall experience better, and these moments are easily 80+% of the game, especially a Zelda game.

However, when you're fighting a boss, completing a dungeon or just exploring, you pay attention to how the environment/enemies look, you pay attention to the music and what it adds to the atmosphere, and you are playing the game (gameplay). This is why I think that a good combination of gameplay, music and graphics is far more important than VA or a deep storyline.

Secondly, Zelda will survive as a gameplay-centric game series.

The true merit of Majora's Mask is not that it's story was deeper or different from Ocarina of Time, but that it's gameplay was. Arguably, TP's story was far deeper than Ocarina of Time, but Ocarina of Time simply had more innovative gameplay than TP (pioneer of 3d Zelda, Z-targeting, context-sensitive buttons, etc.). Considering that the N64 sold 20M (?) less than the Wii, and that TP sold less than OoT and got lower ratings, that's pretty good evidence that a game with great gameplay is more likely to end up in a more successful position than a game with slightly/much worse gameplay and a deeper storyline.

Again, I am not anti-story, but I just think that Z-Wii would still end up as a great game if it was nothing but pure innovative gameplay, music and graphics, with the bare skeleton of a story (and Stalfos, of course ).

After all, the only times that Zelda has been heavily criticized is when its gameplay could be heavily criticized (Zelda II's sidescrolling, WW's sailing and TP... in general).

Thirdly, it's not impossible for Ganondorf to have the greatest story involving Hyrule and Zelda (Legend of Zelda, lol).

Where does it actually say that we must throw away Ganon and Zelda for a good Zelda game? What, would the game really be so much better if Ganondorf 's character model was replaced halfway through development by a completely different character model, but retained the same moves?

Again, Ganondorf's recent outings (coughTPcough) have been lackluster not just because of the fact that he was too easy (bad gameplay) and had somewhat dull music, but also because his part in the storyline was rushed.

I just want Ganondorf to actually do something evil in the next Zelda, something that makes me actually hate or fear him.

Finally, I'd just like to say that I'm getting a "fan" vibe from you. You know, the same fans that Yahtzee was talking about in his oh-so-famous quote?

Just my three-hundred-and-twenty cents .

I completely agree with Double A.
I think the most important aspect of any game is the gameplay. Story comes next because it is what drives you through the game, and music and graphics close behind because they create the atmosphere.

Originally Posted by GK: 5895/9999

If Ocarina of Time was released first in 2D, what's worse would be at the same time as Super Mario 64, it would have never, ever been as praised as it is now. It really was the 3D.

This is such a silly statement. The 3D is what defined Ocarina's gameplay. It's not like we are talking about adding waggle motion controls or touch-screen controls; the 3D engine drastically changed the experience. If Ocarina of Time was 2D, it would be a completely different game. Making the jump from 2D to 3D is revolutionary for the franchise, especially since not games made the transtition to 3D so well.

Take Final Fantasy VII for example; It was in 3D, but it played exactly like the previous games. It's just that the sprites were replayed with primitive 3D models, and the backgrounds were now pre-rendered.

The statement you made is like saying: If Metroid Prime wasn't in 3D or in first-person, it wouldn't stant out. Well, maybe. You just removed two of it's most defining features.

Besides, Ocarina of Time is a wonderful game that introduced all kinds of lore, characters, races, songs, and other elements (like the horse) that have become a mainstay for the series.

Question

People keep talking about how the series needs more new ideas LIKE MM. Nintendo see's "Like MM", so they try to do something like it. (Over analyzing? Sure. It's not like we do it at all whenever someone from Nintendo says something about the series at all, right?) They tried to do so with TP with the whole wolf thing, and then it's just brushed off as an MM rip-off. And the same thing with Ganondorf. They added him in because fans kept asking for him to be in the game, because seeing Ganondorf in it would be awesome.


So what IS going to be "New" with the gameplay? Slashing your sword with motion controls? Oh, wait. TP already did that on the Wii. Rehash. More interactive characters? MM rehash. A large section of the Zelda fanbase will never be happy. And nothing Nintendo does will every make them happy.

Seeing Spirit Tracks, I'm guessing they finally just said "**** this" and did whatever the hell they wanted.

Originally Posted by Seen

So what IS going to be "New" with the gameplay? Slashing your sword with motion controls? Oh, wait. TP already did that on the Wii. Rehash.

Nobody is going to be calling controls a rehash.

More interactive characters? MM rehash. I want my old, lifeless characters back. Personality sucks!

Right?

A large section of the Zelda fanbase will never be happy. And nothing Nintendo does will every make them happy.

That's true, but for reasons other than what you just gave. One of the bigger problems is with people saying "omg that boat is dumb" and all of those stupid criticisms. Those, as well as the "make it like Ocarina of Time" people who are holding things back.

Heck, it might seem completely out of this world, but why not just make a new Zelda game that isn't practically replaying what we've done over ten times before?

Originally Posted by GK: 5895/9999

Nobody is going to be calling controls a rehash.

Sadly, I have had the misfortune of knowing some people who think that it is. Which is why I came here in hopes of finding the less-*****y side of the Zelda fanbase. (Although some posts here look like they were made from watered-down versions of them)

Right?

I'm using it as an example. Read post above.

Heck, it might seem completely out of this world, but why not just make a new Zelda game that isn't practically replaying what we've done over ten times before?

They try. They really do. We wouldn't have games like MM, WW, and PH if they didn't. The Zelda fanbase the one of the most split ones ever, but I doubt nintendo knows, or rather, cares about that. Poor sales = less money. So they tried going with TP.

Originally Posted by Seen

Sadly, I have had the misfortune of knowing some people who think that it is. Which is why I came here in hopes of finding the less-*****y side of the Zelda fanbase. (Although some posts here look like they were made from watered-down versions of them)

Then they're idiots. I've seriously never heard of anyone complaining about the controls staying the same through a number of games.

I'm using it as an example. Read post above.

Did you see the part I edited in? People aren't ever going to complain about that. Maybe if they made a town that works like Clocktown (which there never would be without an overarching time mechanic, really), but Clocktown was amazing. They would be complaining about some of the best experiences in the series returning, in what would be a different way (unless it was Clocktown again, of course).

Also, I know that last part might sound contradictory compared to what I've been saying, but that's something that Zelda really did right and then left alone again. The idea of great NPC interaction would be returning, yes, but you really can't complain about it. It's not the same as returning items or story developments.

They try. They really do. We wouldn't have games like MM, WW, and PH if they didn't. The Zelda fanbase the one of the most split ones ever, but I doubt nintendo knows, or rather, cares about that.

That's why I like those two games the best. I love Ocarina of Time and the 2D games, I love Majora's Mask and Wind Waker, but I don't especially love Twilight Princess. It's repeating the same feeling we had in the past. Twilight Princess is an old Zelda, Majora's Mask and Wind Waker were different. I don't see the need to go back in time and make a game similar to those.

I have nothing to worry about for the new Wii Zelda. I can already tell it's going to be very different from Twilight Princess.

"(In regards to First Person Zelda) I don't necessarily think it will change that drastically, but I think that Zelda is a franchise that does need some big new unique ideas," he said. "And so the team right now is very focused on trying to find those ideas."

10:00 - Zelda team has been talking about how they define the game and how they can move it forward. Wants players to create their own memories as they're playing.

They're "redefining" what Zelda means. The new Zelda is taking forever because they are starting from scratch again.

Miyamoto says that every game.

He needs forceable retiring.

Originally Posted by GK: 5895/9999

Then they're idiots. I've seriously never heard of anyone complaining about the controls staying the same through a number of games.

They are idiots. And that's why all of these AS LONG AS IT'S CHANGE IT'S ALL GOOD threads are making me so upset.

Did you see the part I edited in? People aren't ever going to complain about that. Maybe if they made a town that works like Clocktown (which there never would be without an overarching time mechanic, really), but Clocktown was amazing. They would be complaining about some of the best experiences in the series returning, in what would be a different way (unless it was Clocktown again, of course).

I would love to see that, as well. But without some kind of time limit like MM, it's hard to give people schedules. And without those, the interactivity with the characters in MM would be nowhere near as fun. I'm pretty sure Nintendo had some kind of plan for that with TP, but dropped it once they decided to do another Zelda wii (like most other things they dropped, they said they went with putting it in Zelda wii, so yeah. Let us hope)

Also, I know that last part might sound contradictory compared to what I've been saying, but that's something that Zelda really did right and then left alone again. The idea of great NPC interaction would be returning, yes, but you really can't complain about it. It's not the same as returning items or story developments.

Those other fans come back into mind. I would love to see it return, personally.

That's why I like those two games the best. I love Ocarina of Time and the 2D games, I love Majora's Mask and Wind Waker, but I don't especially love Twilight Princess. It's repeating the same feeling we had in the past. Twilight Princess is an old Zelda, Majora's Mask and Wind Waker were different. I don't see the need to go back in time and make a game similar to those.

Just put in an edit in my post, too, to try to explain it more from what (I assume is) nintendo's point of view.

I agree with the points you brought up in this post, and I'm glad it has come to that. However, an entire REBOOT of the series is a little bit too extreme, in my opinion. It needs quite a few new ideas, but things it needs most are already in past Zelda games. Reviving those old ideas alone would do wonders for the series. No need for a reboot.

I think it means giving Link a personality and a really great story to progress through. If voice acting was implemented, it would help a lot. The main problem with Link being so 'hollow' is that he has no script and no lines. If he talked, he would be bursting with personality. This could be voice acting or text.

I agree that the story really does need a reboot, but then again the gameplay could use some alterations too. Like I've said before, I don't want to know how to kill nearly every boss in a game I know nothing about yet.

If I have to shoot one ****ing more eye, just one ****ing more, I will automatically dock 10% in my internal review of the next game in the series.

Originally Posted by GK: 5895/9999

I think it means giving Link a personality and a really great story to progress through. If voice acting was implemented, it would help a lot. The main problem with Link being so 'hollow' is that he has no script and no lines. If he talked, he would be bursting with personality. This could be voice acting or text.

Link was always meant to be hollow. But another WW-like expressive Link with much more personality would be great.

But if, for some reason, Link HAD to talk, I'd go with text.

Originally Posted by Seen

Link was always meant to be hollow. But another WW-like expressive Link with much more personality would be great.

WW Link was definatly the best Link so far. He had personality, but it was one that you could easily identify with. He even talked

Originally Posted by Seen

Question

People keep talking about how the series needs more new ideas LIKE MM. Nintendo see's "Like MM", so they try to do something like it. (Over analyzing? Sure. It's not like we do it at all whenever someone from Nintendo says something about the series at all, right?) They tried to do so with TP with the whole wolf thing, and then it's just brushed off as an MM rip-off. And the same thing with Ganondorf. They added him in because fans kept asking for him to be in the game, because seeing Ganondorf in it would be awesome.


So what IS going to be "New" with the gameplay? Slashing your sword with motion controls? Oh, wait. TP already did that on the Wii. Rehash. More interactive characters? MM rehash. A large section of the Zelda fanbase will never be happy. And nothing Nintendo does will every make them happy.

Seeing Spirit Tracks, I'm guessing they finally just said "**** this" and did whatever the hell they wanted.

I don't think anyone is asking for another Majora's Mask. Fans just want something that stands out, does something new, has heart, and puts more focus on challenge and interesting characters.

No one is asking for Majora's Mask 2.

Originally Posted by Crab Helmet

Miyamoto says that every game.

He needs forceable retiring.

Oh please. I never said anything like that during TP or PH's development. =\

And if they want Link to have a personality without a voice, then give him more more speech options. One of my favorite interactions with a character was in Wind Waker. A girl (Mali?) was trying to steal money, but Link talks her out of it with a whole bunch of different speech options. I remember one time she asked "Doesn't that just tung on your heart strings?" and I could help but pick the choice that said "That's kind of funny!" xD The girl punched me and ran off.

They need to use that more often.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh6wf...eature=related

WW Link was definatly the best Link so far. He had personality, but it was one that you could easily identify with. He even talked

And meowed. Maybe Link needs more voice commands. Link: "Come on! Come on!" Medli: "Wa-Waiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!"

Yeah, and not those ****ty Yes / No questions which you never actually get a choice with.

Zelda: Do you want to hear about my dream? Yes / No
Link: No
Zelda: sadface
Zelda: Do you want to hear about my dream? Yes / No

Originally Posted by GK: 5895/9999

Yeah, and not those ****ty Yes / No questions which you never actually get a choice with.

Zelda: Do you want to hear about my dream? Yes / No
Link: No
Zelda: sadface
Zelda: Do you want to hear about my dream? Yes / No

Lol, I liked doing that. But if it wasn't for the text options Zelda would've been talking to herself. The Yes and No's actually made it feel like they were interacting.

There was also the part with Nabooru. I always used to answer her wrong "Why are you here?" "I'm looking for a sage." (Wrong) "I'm here to see the Temple." (WRONG) ...Oh come on. xD "You're not one of Ganon's Minions...are you?" "What if I am?" was always my answer.