Zelda: Reboot

Originally Posted by GK: 5895/9999

If Ocarina of Time was released first in 2D, what's worse would be at the same time as Super Mario 64, it would have never, ever been as praised as it is now. It really was the 3D.



If they aren't something that's practically been done before, it's a primarily standard function of 3D gameplay.

Z-targeting wasn't before, and just because it was the proper choice doesn't diminish it's innovative or excellent, especially if we use Crab's "new = innovation" logic.

I don't know how valid that logic is, "If it was released in 2d at that time, it would not be as critically acclaimed."

I guess I'll give you that point, since it wouldn't be. It'd be a dissapointment to reviewers, but if the gameplay was just as strong it'd probably be just as loved by fans. The problem there lies with the inherent differences in gameplay that comes from 2d versus 3d. Your argument becomes sort of unassailable in that sense, since it's completely hypothetical. What made OoT great is what it did for 3D third person gaming. I doubt it would be the same without it.

In response to crabby, None of that is actual evidence, you're just repeating aspects that you don't find acceptable. THe Midi thing is a fair point, and I'll give that to you, but everything else you mentioned is common factors of a series. I'm sorry you're tired of the Hookshot, but perhaps it's time for you to move on. I mean, why is the Stalfos acceptable, but not the Hookshot? Or Link? Or Zelda? Or swords? Why not just forget it all, and make it Cooking Mama? None of what you're saying in that regard makes any sense.

What character is indepth in Majora's Mask, btw? We see the immediate effect of Link's actions on some choice characters, but the same can be said of many of the games.

In response to your "people like you" BS, I'd love to think Nintendo actually gave two ****s about my opinion, that way they'd go back and retcon all their **** til it actually linked together, instead of the inevitably pointless pontificating that I love to do anyway, but it doesn't. I have no affect on LoZ development, so you can't blame me for anything other than having an opinion, in which case, I would suggest not using Forums.

Originally Posted by IgnixMadax

I don't know how valid that logic is, "If it was released in 2d at that time, it would not be as critically acclaimed."

I guess I'll give you that point, since it wouldn't be. It'd be a dissapointment to reviewers, but if the gameplay was just as strong it'd probably be just as loved by fans. The problem there lies with the inherent differences in gameplay that comes from 2d versus 3d. Your argument becomes sort of unassailable in that sense, since it's completely hypothetical. What made OoT great is what it did for 3D third person gaming. I doubt it would be the same without it.

It would not be the definite Zelda title. You can't say the same for Majora's Mask, because if that were the first Zelda title, it would have been through the roof. As well as all of the overhype of 3D, you actually got some decent changes in the game that was radically different from anything that had been done before, for the most part.

What character is indepth in Majora's Mask, btw? We see the immediate effect of Link's actions on some choice characters, but the same can be said of many of the games.

Near every NPC in Majora's Mask has personality. Seriously, if not all.

Originally Posted by IgnixMadax

In response to crabby, None of that is actual evidence, you're just repeating aspects that you don't find acceptable.

You can't have true evidence on something that is opinionated, so you don't have any evidence for your side of the argument, either. What I'm providing is examples of my reasoning, which is the best you can do on an opinionated matter.

THe Midi thing is a fair point, and I'll give that to you, but everything else you mentioned is common factors of a series.

Neither Link's Awakening nor Majora's Mask followed the plot conventions of the other games in the series.

Compared to tLoZ, almost all of aLttP's inventory was new, with a few exceptions.

Majora's Mask had strong dialogue and filled in characters.

The original tLoZ was not linear.

As you can see, none of the things I mentioned are common factors.

I'm sorry you're tired of the Hookshot, but perhaps it's time for you to move on.

I have. Did I mention I don't like the series any more?

I mean, why is the Stalfos acceptable, but not the Hookshot?

The Stalfos has been in every game, it's somewhat like a Chocobo in Final Fantasy in that it's a mascot of sorts. The Stalfos has featured in more games than Zelda gas, or Hyrule has or Ganondorf has, it's one of the few features to be even in AoL.

Or Link? Or Zelda? Or swords? Why not just forget it all, and make it Cooking Mama? None of what you're saying in that regard makes any sense.

Link is like the Stalfos in that he has been in every game, and does make the Legend of Zelda what it is. However, I would not be adverseto massive changes to how Link is implemented.

I honestly wouldn't care if they removed Zelda. Guess which two games (among others) did not feature Zelda?

The Sword, like Link and the Stalfos, has been in every single game, but like Link, I wouldn't mind large changes to how it is implemented.

What character is indepth in Majora's Mask, btw? We see the immediate effect of Link's actions on some choice characters, but the same can be said of many of the games.

Kafei and Anju? The Skull Kid? The Happy Mask's Salesman? Clock Town as whole is fairly impressive.

In response to your "people like you" BS, I'd love to think Nintendo actually gave two ****s about my opinion, that way they'd go back and retcon all their **** til it actually linked together, instead of the inevitably pointless pontificating that I love to do anyway, but it doesn't. I have no affect on LoZ development, so you can't blame me for anything other than having an opinion, in which case, I would suggest not using Forums.

Oh, but people like you do influence Nintendo to a huge extent. Maybe not individually, but together you certainly spurred Nintendo on into making the lacklustre Twilight Princess.

This is entirely pointless, and completely off topic.

You have your opinion and I have mine. I'm sorry I'm less jaded I suppose?

Kafei and Anju are a glorified trade sequence. We don't actually KNOW anything about them. We know they are getting married. We know Kafei is a kid now. The Skull Kid is inexplicable. He was friends with giants, now he's not. So he went on a mean streak and now he has an evil mask. Nothing about that is really that indepth or amazing. The Mask Salesmen is the most inexplicable of all, being some sort of Loki/Puck trickster type figure with strange powers.

Clocktown also featured a TON of reused characters from OoT.

Using your logic, wouldn't your opinion be just as important as mine? To Nintendo, I mean? Is my "Group" really that much larger than yours?

I also don't think TP is lackluster. I think it's pretty good.

also to the other poster, I think it's just as easily said about Majora's Mask. It'd probably be more ignored than it is if it wasn't in 3D, since it again brings up the issue of 3d gameplay versus 3D.

ANd the same could be said about OoT, since MM reuses basically every OoT NPC again, without changing a whole lot.

Begging lady/man is still a begging lady/man, just works at a bank now.

Originally Posted by IgnixMadax

Kafei and Anju are a glorified trade sequence. We don't actually KNOW anything about them. We know they are getting married. We know Kafei is a kid now. The Skull Kid is inexplicable. He was friends with giants, now he's not. So he went on a mean streak and now he has an evil mask. Nothing about that is really that indepth or amazing. The Mask Salesmen is the most inexplicable of all, being some sort of Loki/Puck trickster type figure with strange powers.

What is Link? A kid who saves the land. Since he's the main character of so many games, that's kind of weak.

Clocktown also featured a TON of reused models from OoT.

Fixed.

also to the other poster, I think it's just as easily said about Majora's Mask. It'd probably be more ignored than it is if it wasn't in 3D, since it again brings up the issue of 3d gameplay versus 3D.

But like I said, the gameplay was so different and refreshing, it would still be a huge high peak for the series even if it were in 2D. Even with the 3D hype surrounding OoT, many including me see MM as a vastly superior game - thanks to how much it changed things up. It still felt like Zelda, but it felt like a completely fresh Zelda. You can't pin that onto it looking the same either.

ANd the same could be said about OoT, since MM reuses basically every OoT NPC again, without changing a whole lot.

As I said before, they use the model. Almost all of the NPCs are completely different characters, even if they look the same.

Begging lady/man is still a begging lady/man, just works at a bank now.

Link doesn't even work in a bank now. He's just a different shape thanks to the art style. Plus, that's really a considerable step up for such a massively minor character. He could have just been cut from OoT, but in MM he serves a key role in the gameplay of the game.

I dunno, The Carpenter are still carpenters, the Dancing Couple are, you know, still dancing. And a couple.

Bored Store Clerk at the Treasure Chest game is still a bored Store Clerk, but now with a brand new weird attraction to Zora's.

Ingo is still a jerk.

Malon still works at a farm.

I'll give you the new models have new personalities, but I fail to see the huge game defining difference you are referring to.

And I don't really think that's true. If one argues that Ocarina of Time wouldn't have been as popular in 3D, it only follows that the same is true of Majora's Mask, which copies directly from OoT's engine. And OoT's engine is completely dependant on being 3D. I really don't think as many people would be attracted to MM if it was just LttP, nor as touched by the story elements if they were all represented with limited emotional sprites. the SNES did have it's limits, and LttP wasn't the most expressive of games.

Originally Posted by IgnixMadax

I dunno, The Carpenter are still carpenters, the Dancing Couple are, you know, still dancing. And a couple.

Bored Store Clerk at the Treasure Chest game is still a bored Store Clerk, but now with a brand new weird attraction to Zora's.

Ingo is still a jerk.

Malon still works at a farm.

I'll give you the new models have new personalities, but I fail to see the huge game defining difference you are referring to.

WHAT HUGE GAMING DIFFERENCE LOL? Seriously man, I love how you avoided all of my points about Link. As I said, Link is the exact same in every game, apart from his literal shape due to varying art styles. You're nitpicking at minor characters, despite them having different characteristics when they could have so easily made each and every one a bland, lifeless character that you'd have no interest in talking to.

When you can remember almost every single NPC from the top of your head distinctly, well, the game is really doing something right. Link I can remember, as the lifeless main character who doesn't get any new personality traits no matter how many games he's in, thus far.

Can you please answer why practically every minor character in Majora's Mask has more to them than Link, the star of every game?

And I don't really think that's true. If one argues that Ocarina of Time wouldn't have been as popular in 3D, it only follows that the same is true of Majora's Mask, which copies directly from OoT's engine. And OoT's engine is completely dependant on being 3D.

Seriously, the thing you quoted is the reply. Majora's Mask is a completely different experience from any other Zelda game. Ocarina of Time is A Link to the Past 3D. See the difference, or not?

Originally Posted by me

But like I said, the gameplay was so different and refreshing, it would still be a huge high peak for the series even if it were in 2D. Even with the 3D hype surrounding OoT, many including me see MM as a vastly superior game - thanks to how much it changed things up. It still felt like Zelda, but it felt like a completely fresh Zelda. You can't pin that onto it looking the same either.

^^^ Just in case you can't find the part you quoted in your last post.

I really don't think as many people would be attracted to MM if it was just LttP

What?

nor as touched by the story elements if they were all represented with limited emotional sprites. the SNES did have it's limits, and LttP wasn't the most expressive of games.

That's subjective and A Link to the Past is a game that's being copied over and over again nonetheless.

I'm either highly doubting you played MM, or you're one of the people who played it and didn't like it because of the time mechanic, or you did a bare-bones playthrough because you got lazy. Either that or you like the game and you're arguing against it for the sake of this argument, which is always great!

As I said in my thread, I agree the Zelda series needs a reboot. I am in favour in throwing all but the core elements of the series out the window. The series is in desperate need of new, innovative ideas.

To me. Everytime they introduce a new Link, I consider it a reboot. And I gotta say I'm sick of rebooting. =\

That isn't rebooting. The game plays the same and he looks the same. It's not like Link is radically different in every game, is it?

Originally Posted by GK: 5895/9999

That isn't rebooting. The game plays the same and he looks the same. It's not like Link is radically different in every game, is it?

Gameplay stays the same. But most of the characters, settings and places that I loved in one game are gone or extremely altered. Link has a different backstory and has no memory of saving anything. =\ It's a reboot to me.

Hence why I suggested a solid, over-arching story after this reboot, instead of leaping around. =3

Well if it makes you guys happy. The new Zelda will have a new gameplay system, or at least it's heavily implied to have a new system.

The other reason, relating to Zelda in particular, is that the development of Zelda has been focused strictly on the gameplay structure at this point. We haven’t devoted much in the way of efforts to things like graphical representation, and story, and those types of production elements. Because of that, we thought it was just more valuable to continue have the team focus their energies on creating what will be a very entertaining gameplay system

Source

Why do people have a problem with Link? He isn't a indevidual character, he was never ment to be one. His reactions are appropriate to the situation he is put in, nothing more, nothing less. The player is supposed to add all the extra flare to him.

Originally Posted by Darth Alec

The player is supposed to add all the extra flare to him.

How? What can a player do at all to add flare to him? Is there even one thing?

You don't have the imagination to add it in your head? You can't project yourself unto a character? Your options in-game are limited (since it's a game), but what goes on in your mind is endless.

Oh nice, I have to imagine the flare. Okay. In that case, Twilight Princess was the best Zelda to date because even though the game was pretty bland and unoriginal for the series, everything I had in my head was projected on screen and it was all of a sudden interesting. It's like I'm making up fan-fic and pretending its real because the game isn't good enough by itself.

Now I understand!

Maybe you should play the game again and just play it. It seems like you came here and started hating the game for exagerated flaws and other issues most people didn't care about while playing the game.

I'm still not sure why people call TP bad.

I would like a reboot in the sense that all the rules introduced in Ocarina of Time be forgotten. This mostly deals with the lore, the music and the environments we visit. Zelda games now just take a set of elements from the previous Zelda game, and add more on stuff on top of them. It's becoming a mess.

It's time to strip down the series. Remove all the rules or lores or whatever that Ocarina of Time brought it, and go back to the foundations of the series: exploration, puzzle-solving, character interaction, and a hero with a sword. The series can be rebuilt from there. Forget about the Ganondorf, the Master Sword, remixing old tunes, the Gorons, Death Mountain, and the Triforce. We already got all that several times before--Zelda needs to be more innovative.

TP is one of the best games in the series.

Originally Posted by GK: 5895/9999

Can you please answer why practically every minor character in Majora's Mask has more to them than Link, the star of every game?

The characters Link (you) interact with should be more interesting than Link himself. He's meant to be transparent.