What do I want to return from previous Zelda games? Absolutely nothing.

Originally Posted by TheBattler

MM = Masks!!11!11
OoT = Linktothepast in 3d!!11!11

Now you compare TP to MM.

I also want Ganondorf to return. He's actually my favourite Zelda character.

Ganondorf should return if they can find ways to reinvent him. It's basically the same boring thing with him. May be pairing him up with a villain that is the total opposite of him-- like Majora. But that would be really strange.

Anyways to add onto my last post a little. I have high hopes for the next Zelda Wii. Nintendo already directly said it's going to take the series in a new direction. The sword sidekick looks pretty cool too. Spirit tracks I'm not sure about... I never played Phantom Hourglass & this new game looks just like it. So I can't judge.

The reason people think Zelda has stagnated is because of TP.

TP filled just about every Zelda cliche, and did it badly. All because Nintendo listened to its fans and gave them a "realistic" Link and a "deep storyline". TP was more story-based than its predecessors, which were largely based on exploration.

Originally Posted by FlashX

Ganondorf should return if they can find ways to reinvent him. It's basically the same boring thing with him. May be pairing him up with a villain that is the total opposite of him-- like Majora. But that would be really strange.

What, is it really so hard to reinvent a character?

Originally Posted by FlashX

Ganondorf should return if they can find ways to reinvent him. It's basically the same boring thing with him. May be pairing him up with a villain that is the total opposite of him-- like Majora. But that would be really strange.

Anyways to add onto my last post a little. I have high hopes for the next Zelda Wii. Nintendo already directly said it's going to take the series in a new direction. The sword sidekick looks pretty cool too. Spirit tracks I'm not sure about... I never played Phantom Hourglass & this new game looks just like it. So I can't judge.

The way they used Ganon in TP was sucky. Link has no relation to him at all, he's just thrown in at the end. In OoT, you can actually feel the relation they have. In TP, he's just the evil guy that appears at the end.

Originally Posted by FlashX

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and this is what I've come up with.

No more Ganon or Gannondorf or Shadow Ganon or anything like that. Retire him for a long while. It's getting almost comical, with his badass "I"M GONNA TAKE OVER HYRULE AND NO 1 CAN STOP ME." Then you kill him in like less than 5 minutes. May be he would've been good in Twilight Princess if they expanded on his character more. But it was the same ****. New villain with a new backstory. Or may be another villain previously used (Majora, Vaati, Veran, Nightmare, etc..) given more depth. May be even pairing up Vaati & Majora, although that could be too weird.

No Hyrule for next Wii Zelda. Hyrule has been explored, at least the Hyrule in TP/OOT has been explored. It' s basically the same map and races. Zoras, Gorons, Hylians, and Humans. And these races aren't even given more depth in Twilight Princess, they're basically watered-down versons of Oot's zoras, gorons, & hylians. Hell, the Hylians don't even talk. If Hyrule is in the new Zelda game, it should be like the Wind Waker Hyrule with the landscape totally changed. Personally I would just prefer a new land, may be in another dimension like Termina.

As for gameplay, Wolf Link was boring. Look at Okami's wolf, all the combos & weapons. I just wish TP's Wolf was similiar to that. Instead the wolf mostly was used to take the place of the Lens of Truth. I like MM's idea with mask transformation but there should be something new. May be switching between Link & his sidekick[s] would be kinda fun. In TP it would've been cool to play as Midna too and upgrade your weapons & armor throughout the game.

As for items, I don't know. I agree they need to be changed. But I'm not sure how to do it, Nintendo has plenty of time to brainstorm though, and they get payed for it.

This guy on ForumPlanet sums up my views on Twilight Princess by the way: http://forumplanet.gamespy.com/gener.../3215245/p1/?3

This post I agree with.

Originally Posted by Double A

All Zelda really needs is innovative gameplay and stunning music, as well as graphics which push the system. If everything else is rehashed (a-la Super Mario Galaxy), it would still be a great game.

Prove me otherwise.

Not being MIDI would be a great place to start.

I also want Ganondorf to return. He's actually my favourite Zelda character.

No. Ganondorf has been used far too much. I'm not saying he should never be in the series again, but he needs to be retired for a while.

Originally Posted by TheBattler

Or...maybe some of the past ideas were really good and weren't fully realized? (the Spinner comes to mind).

As I said earlier in the thread, the spinner was underutilized.

lol

Alright.

Four Swords Adventure would like to talk to you.

Yep. Definitely the same caliber as MM.

Funny enough, you are right; it WAS the fans who made Twilight Princess.

Originally Posted by Yahtzee

Fans are clingy, complaining dip****s who will never, ever be grateful for any concession you make. The moment you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices, the happier you'll be for it.

LOL you're not going to win any arguments like this dwag.

Since when is this an argument? I'm just throwing this rant out there.

XMFD Are you serious?

MM = Masks!!11!11
OoT = Linktothepast in 3d!!11!11

EVERY Zelda has been built around a "****ty idea," except perhaps the first Zelda, which was built around several ideas.

The difference is that some games (Like MM) have been able to use that idea in an innovative way, while other (Like TP) have not.

Originally Posted by fratey

Zelda has great music - what it needs is not midi.

IMO, Midi music on the console Zeldas stopped being "great" after MM.


And Fratey and Silver, orchestrated music was what I meant by "stunning music" in my earlier post.

Originally Posted by Silver

No. Ganondorf has been used far too much. I'm not saying he should never be in the series again, but he needs to be retired for a while.

Two games (hopefully) is enough of a break for him. No Ganondorf in PH and ST would be enough of a reason IMO to bring him back in Z-Wii.

Originally Posted by Double A

IMO, Midi music on the console Zeldas stopped being "great" after MM.


Orchestrated music was what I meant.

I agree that it needs orchestrated music, but I mean that some tracks are spectacular as the tracks themselves, they are just hindered by being midi.

[I will only respond to the original post, though I've read most of them.

The maximum for me would be Link and Zelda. Anything else can be thrown out the window.

So, your main argument is that Legend of Zelda has gotten stagnant, yet you want the core characters from the series anyway, rehashing the two most reoccurring characters. Makes sense.

Zelda has stagnated. You cannot deny that.

Yes I can. I am, right now. There, I have debunked the core element of your argument. You find this element self-explanatory, I think you're wrong, and as such this argument is already falling apart. Of course, it is clearly your opinion and I can't deny you that, but, lets keep reading, shall we?

Majora's Mask was the last Zelda game that truly innovated the formula, while every game after has further stagnated the series, culminating in TP, the perfect example of a series that has become stagnant. TP brought no innovation to the series, only gimmicks, most of which had been done better in previous games anyway.

Before I begin, lets talk about gimmicks. Gimmicks are innovations that did not become popular for one reason or another. Generally because they are superfluous or not fun or what have you. It's a term used a lot lately to describe the Wii, and it's become the popular thing to blast Nintendo for this generation.

Having established that, I will approach your first point. Majora's Mask being innovative. While I love Majora's mask, There's nothing particularly innovative about it. The Mask system was introduced in OoT, though not to the same extent, the Time Travel is also used in OoT, but not quite to the same extent. Sensing a pattern here? Horse riding, music playing, Z targeting, first person projectile use, etc. One might say that Majora's Mask is, in point of fact, a rehash. A rehash of the most popular chapter. Mind you, It is the most story driven of ANY Legend of Zelda, but none of the gameplay elements introduced are really innovations. Also, I feel the game suffers without a Zelda character, a strong female support for Link, or a person for him to really communicate with, but that is a separate issue. There's even a fairy, but for what reason? Who knows. I suppose you could stretch it and say that the Fairies were outcasts themselves, therefore they befriend the Skull Kid, but...

I don't really know how Twilight Princess isn't "Innovative". I would argue that Midna herself is an innovation of the Side Kick character. Somebody working through you to her own means, which we really don't fully understand. Even Zelda won't fill you in. I don't know if "Underutilized" is really an excuse for items not being good enough or something. There are plenty of "good" zelda games where the items are really only used once or twice. Ice Arrows, anyone? Hell, there's a song in Majora's Mask, and a friggen Mask, that only works in one dungeon. I would argue that is "Underutilized"

Moving on.

Examples:
Wolf Link = Transformation masks in MM
Twilight Realm = Dark World from A Link to the Past
Gale Boomerang = Boomerang re-skinned with a wind effect
etc.

Even your examples don't really bolster your argument well...I mean, didn't you ENJOY the transformation masks in MM? Why wouldn't you want to experience a different version of that? It's forced upon you, sure, but I defy you to do any of the Beach bits of MM entirely in the Goron Mask. I can't for the life of me think of what your problem with the wolf segments were...Faster movement speed, and AoE attack, and you get to leap on people and rip out their jugulars. What more could you really ask for? Sure it's not a LIGHTNING AURA, but at least it sorta makes sense.

Twilight realm, Eh, Im not sure what you're referring to here. If you're referring to one dungeon, Im not sure what you're point is. If you're referring to the bits where HYRULE is covered in Twilight, and you have to restore it...Im not sure which Zelda game that is like. Is that really a rehash? In LttP it's just the way it is, you can't change it...

I personally liked the Gale Boomering, but whatever, that's just me I suppose. I don't have any supporting argument for it, since at it's core, it's a stylized stick of wood that when you throw, comes back to you. The Whirlwind element, which is honestly the key, added a nifty puzzle factor of blowing away leaves and carrying bombs. It's a nifty combination of the Deku Leaf and a Boomerang, and it's a more interesting ranged option than the Slingshot at that juncture.

I guess I do have supportive arguments. Moving on...

Regardless, I'm sure we can all agree (Or rather, the intelligent among us can all agree) that Zelda badly needs change. It needs a game that did what MM did, truly innovating the Zelda formula while still feeling like a Zelda game.

Again, I'm not really sure what you mean by innovating exactly. What about the Zelda formula did MM innovate? You make statements without really supporting them, though I guess you at least acknowledge it by calling it a rant. Seems sort of unfair of you to call out people who disagree as "unintelligent." What exactly do you mean by change?

People like you are the reason why soon Link will have a goatee and a Master Pistol and ride a Motorcycle named Eponer while spouting one liners or something through Neo-Hyrule. The thought makes me gag.

I am in favour of stripping everything from previous games from the next game, retaining only the core elements of the series (Such as Link). The formula needs a huge revamp and change, like what MM did. I want new enemies, new items, new locations, new mechanics, and most importantly, new, innovative ideas.

Well, that's my rant. Discuss.

I really want to know what you think MM did, because perhaps we played a different game. The game you are describing doesn't seem to be the reused engine from OoT direct sequel that I remember.

And I don't remember a Zelda that didn't have new enemies. I mean, sure, there are re-occurring enemies, but mostly they put a new spin on them anyway. The Moblins in OoT are not equivalent to the Moblins in LttP.

You know what would have put a whole new spin on your argument? If you used Wind Waker instead of Majora's Mask. Wind Waker DID innovate, and DID try new things and work with them. It has lovely cel-shaded graphics that compare to some of the crap we've come out with today, a pretty decent wind physics engine, and probably my favorite water animation from any game ever. It gave Link actual swordplay in the form of the misnamed Parry, and made his emotes even more expressive. The music is fantastic, and the world is HUUUGE. That's innovation right there. Heck, even the story has twists. It makes Ganondorf...sympathetic! Can you imagine? The dude hates the desert! He wants to live in the not-desert! Is that so wrong? I mean, he wants to take over the world too, but whatever!

It seems to me what you want is not a series. Because, really, that's what a SERIES is. It's reusing comfortable images and characters and linking them in that manner. IT's possible that you enjoyed LoZ at one point, but now you have moved on with your life, and thats cool, but from what you have stated in your original post it seems the problems you state lie with you and not with the series itself.

I'm not gonna go on about why the series isn't stagnating, but I will throw something else out there:

It's funny that you throw out that Yahtzee quote, because the people he is referring to is you. The people who claim to enjoy something, but really don't know what they want and then blame the games or companies when they don't live up to their unrealistic and unknown desires.

Then again, it was the Yahtzee quote that inspired me to even post this response. Anyone who can quote somebody who unequivocally hates everything unless it's Half-Life 2 or Silent Hell 2 because of arbitrary reasons deserves to get their BS dissected and thrown in their face.

I have no hopes of changing your opinion, I just posted this in the hopes that somebody will read it and not be close-minded about the games and their positive sides. Take a deeper look, and you'll find what you're looking for, especially in LoZ.

I also believe that most of it should be thrown out, for a reboot. However, there are a few Zelda elements that I believe should stay forever:

* Heart meter (You could have 3 hearts or 1000 hearts, I don't care - as long as the meter is there on top of the corner)

* Secret jingle. Can't have Zelda without the classic jingle.

* Item jingle. You know you get something good when you hear this.

* LoZ original overworld theme, but not necessarily as the overworld theme - but in the credits or if it fits somewhere during the game.


Other than that, they can experiment all they want. I feel those four things are the small details that more or less define Zelda - apart from the gameplay, which needs to evolve anyway.

Originally Posted by Wolf O'Donnell

You're right, Zelda is getting old, needs a better formula, the old 3 dungeons, plot twist, 5 dungeons, game end type formula needs some tweaks.

This is the only thing that needs a change. This is the only thing that is really getting stale. Even though TP did this, it was still an interesting story.

IgnaxMadax sums everything up his very good post.

Originally Posted by IgnixMadax

So, your main argument is that Legend of Zelda has gotten stagnant, yet you want the core characters from the series anyway, rehashing the two most reoccurring characters. Makes sense.

You are just unbelievable. I suggest you head back to primary school and hone your reading skills. Did he say he actively wanted to say Link and Zelda? No, he didn't. He may hate the character, but be willing to compromise. He said, at the maximum, ie, worst case scenario he'd accept, they'd be back. In his best case scenario, they may not feature at all.

Yes, I can. I am, right now. There, I have debunked the core element of your argument. You find this element self-explanatory, I think you're wrong, and as such this argument is already falling apart. Of course, it is clearly your opinion and I can't deny you that, but, lets keep reading, shall we?

Perhaps he should have said no sane person could disagree. Refuting the fact that the Zelda series is increasingly stagnant is stupidity on an immense scale. Seeing as you are addicted to evidence, let's use the closest thing we can, the opinion of independant games reviewers who have no part in this argument.

"A fun, but dated and unoriginal flight through the land of Hyrule. The main quest may be longer than most, and the sidequests may be in abundance, but that doesn't help Twilight Princess from feeling like the same thing we all played nearly ten years ago." - RPG Fan.

"Pretty much everything is just like earlier Zelda games, and that’s good from a nostalgia point of view, and bad for originality." - Game Revolution

"Parts of [Twilight Princess's] presentation feel stuck in the past." - GameSpot

"There are times in the game when you want to shake Miyamoto and co by the lapels for including elements of the game which remain dogged by old-school convention." - Eurogamer

I'd go on, but I'm bored.

Before I begin, lets talk about gimmicks. Gimmicks are innovations that did not become popular for one reason or another. Generally because they are superfluous or not fun or what have you. It's a term used a lot lately to describe the Wii, and it's become the popular thing to blast Nintendo for this generation.

No, it's an accurate thing to blast Nintendo for this generation.

Having established that, I will approach your first point. Majora's Mask being innovative. While I love Majora's mask, There's nothing particularly innovative about it. The Mask system was introduced in OoT, though not to the same extent, the Time Travel is also used in OoT, but not quite to the same extent. Sensing a pattern here? Horse riding, music playing, Z targeting, first person projectile use, etc. One might say that Majora's Mask is, in point of fact, a rehash. A rehash of the most popular chapter. Mind you, It is the most story driven of ANY Legend of Zelda, but none of the gameplay elements introduced are really innovations. Also, I feel the game suffers without a Zelda character, a strong female support for Link, or a person for him to really communicate with, but that is a separate issue. There's even a fairy, but for what reason? Who knows. I suppose you could stretch it and say that the Fairies were outcasts themselves, therefore they befriend the Skull Kid, but...

The Mask system in OoT was essentially just a skin change, it wasn't a system at all. In MM, it allows you to become a Goron, a Zora, a Deku Scrub. Are you telling me that changing the entire way Link functions isn't innovation? That being able to change your species and form isn't innovation? Then you are obviously deluded.

Time travel in OoT is incredibly mediocre. All it is used to do is to artificially restrict you from using certain items at certain places, and change the scene every now and again. Time travel in Majora's Mask is massively game-changing, and time actually flows in the game. In Ocarina of Time, years could pass by in tersm of actual day/night transitions in the game, and nothing happens. Majora's Mask has a real, happening time scale, which is massively innovative, more so than anything in Ocarina of Time.

The whole point of Majora's Mask is that Link has no female support. After Ocarina of Time, Link has to undergo the toughest challenge of all, growing up. You can't get helped in that, it's deeply personal, and you go it alone. The very premise of the game shows Link from going helpless and alone in the form of the Deku Scrub, to a fully realised adult in Fierce Deity. He can't jump between old and young like on Ocarina of Time - now, it's for real. Having support would totally ruin the atmosphere of isolation and darkness.

I don't really know how Twilight Princess isn't "Innovative". I would argue that Midna herself is an innovation of the Side Kick character. Somebody working through you to her own means, which we really don't fully understand. Even Zelda won't fill you in. I don't know if "Underutilized" is really an excuse for items not being good enough or something. There are plenty of "good" zelda games where the items are really only used once or twice. Ice Arrows, anyone? Hell, there's a song in Majora's Mask, and a friggen Mask, that only works in one dungeon. I would argue that is "Underutilized"

Yes, Midna was nice, but she's not the first side-kick to have motives we don't know about, or be someone who is not who they seem to be at first glance. She has three precedents, Shiek, Ezlo, and King of the Red Lions, respectively. As a character she was nice, but as an actual side kick, she was immensely irritating, ruining the game by explaing exactly what you had to do and leading you through it as though you were a toddler, incapable of even working out the most basic things for yourself. Maybe you like being mollycoddled, but I don't.

Moving on.

Glad to hear it. Your previous speech was sickening.

Even your examples don't really bolster your argument well...I mean, didn't you ENJOY the transformation masks in MM? Why wouldn't you want to experience a different version of that? It's forced upon you, sure, but I defy you to do any of the Beach bits of MM entirely in the Goron Mask. I can't for the life of me think of what your problem with the wolf segments were...Faster movement speed, and AoE attack, and you get to leap on people and rip out their jugulars. What more could you really ask for? Sure it's not a LIGHTNING AURA, but at least it sorta makes sense.

Yes, I enjoyed the transformation masks, because they were new. If you re-used the concept, they wouldn't be new. It's the whole "been there, done that, and all I got was this stupid T-shirt" thing. Perhaps, if they could build on the transformations, and improve them, I'd like it, but they didn't. Wolf Link is inferior to Link in every way. The only time you ever use him is for warping, and faster movement when you can't use Epona. He's the ultimate transport *****. Link can use items, is ridiculously superior in combat, and takes half of the damage Wolf Link would. Why would you ever willingly want to use Wolf Link outside of transport? At least some of Link's transformation were useful in combat, notably Zora Link.

Twilight realm, Eh, Im not sure what you're referring to here. If you're referring to one dungeon, Im not sure what you're point is. If you're referring to the bits where HYRULE is covered in Twilight, and you have to restore it...Im not sure which Zelda game that is like. Is that really a rehash? In LttP it's just the way it is, you can't change it...

What he's refering to is the fact the games both use a "switch back and forth between a light world and a dark world" cliche for plot advancement. It was cool in aLttP, when the whole dark world thing was relatively new, now it's just a joke. It may have worked if the Twilight Realm had actually been dark, filled with terrifying, difficult memories, music that was actually scary rather than repetitive techno that just got on my nerves, and had an actual purpose, but instead it was just a lame excuse for a scene change and Wolf Link.

I personally liked the Gale Boomering, but whatever, that's just me I suppose. I don't have any supporting argument for it, since at it's core, it's a stylized stick of wood that when you throw, comes back to you. The Whirlwind element, which is honestly the key, added a nifty puzzle factor of blowing away leaves and carrying bombs. It's a nifty combination of the Deku Leaf and a Boomerang, and it's a more interesting ranged option than the Slingshot at that juncture.

But why use the Boomerang at all? Instead if implementing a new, interesting item, they just took the Boomerang and change it around a little, which was totally unnecessary, and used only to provide nostalgia/whore old concepts. And yes, it's more interesting than the Slingshot, in the same way an electric chair is a preferable method of execution to being boiled alive in hot oil.

I guess I do have supportive arguments. Moving on...

Again, I'm not really sure what you mean by innovating exactly. What about the Zelda formula did MM innovate? You make statements without really supporting them, though I guess you at least acknowledge it by calling it a rant. Seems sort of unfair of you to call out people who disagree as "unintelligent." What exactly do you mean by change?

If you can't figure out what MM innovated in (hint: I listed it above), then you really have no business talking Zelda. And if you can't figure out what he means by change, I think the title "unintelligent" may apply. He's talking about reworking the series, with deeper plots, new items, rich and fluid characters.

People like you are the reason why soon Link will have a goatee and a Master Pistol and ride a Motorcycle named Eponer while spouting one liners or something through Neo-Hyrule. The thought makes me gag.

Here is a perfect example of making a statement without supporting. I love the taste of hypocrisy, it's such a sweet taste, the taste of knowing your opponent is a fool and cannot possibly hope to defend their views.

y want to know what you think MM did, because perhaps we played a different game. The game you are describing doesn't seem to be the reused engine from OoT direct sequel that I remember.

OoT used Super Mario's sequel, so that's a moot point, as you can't claim Majora's Mask isn't innovative because it re-used an older engine without similarly damning Ocarina of Time.

And I don't remember a Zelda that didn't have new enemies. I mean, sure, there are re-occurring enemies, but mostly they put a new spin on them anyway. The Moblins in OoT are not equivalent to the Moblins in LttP.

Aside from the fact they've been made 3D, there is very little difference. And each game introduces a bare minimum of new enemies - the vast majority are re-used concepts with minor rehauls.

You know what would have put a whole new spin on your argument? If you used Wind Waker instead of Majora's Mask. Wind Waker DID innovate, and DID try new things and work with them. It has lovely cel-shaded graphics that compare to some of the crap we've come out with today,

Cell-shaded is nice graphics and all, but many Zelda games have impressive graphics. aLttP was beautiful in its time, and so on. Similarly, it didn't try a totally new art style, it just brought the art style from tMC and FS/A into 3D, so it didn't innovate in that respect at all.

a pretty decent wind physics engine,

This would have been nice, if it were not for the fact it's only use was in the incredibly tedious sailing mechanics that featured Link spending a good 10 minutes traipsing through largely featureless seas in search of each island.

and probably my favorite water animation from any game ever.

Oh, wow. Pretty water. That's it, tWW must be ****ing amazing. Nothing can top pretty water.

It gave Link actual swordplay in the form of the misnamed Parry,

See the Minish Cap's extensive list of sword skill.

and made his emotes even more expressive.

That's just a natural progression of graphics, same as the transition from aLttP to OoT is the natural progression from 2D to 3D.

The music is fantastic,

Shame it's 90% remix, with very few new tracks, and all in synth MIDIs.

and the world is HUUUGE.

And empty. Huge and incredibly empty, meaning you spend most of your time aimlessly wandering through identical looking stretches of sea.

That's innovation right there.

hurhurhurhurhur

Heck, even the story has twists.

Four dungeons collecting items, plot twist, three dungeons collecting items, plot twist, final boss dungeon.

Hmm...

Seem familiar?

It makes Ganondorf... sympathetic! Can you imagine? The dude hates the desert! He wants to live in the not-desert! Is that so wrong? I mean, he wants to take over the world too, but whatever!

Yeah, and this would have been nice five or so games ago, when Ganondorf was actually an interesting, new character. Now it's just a last minute explanation of his motives several games too late to have any relevance.

It seems to me what you want is not a series. Because, really, that's what a SERIES is. It's reusing comfortable images and characters and linking them in that manner.

No. Look at Metroid. It went from a Metroidvania to a first-person shooter to a 2.5D game (M:OM). It went from isolated and alone in Super Metroid, to a team in Metroid Prime 3. It went from a minimalist plot in Metroid, to a fully fleshed out plot in Metroid: Fusion. Here is a series willing to innovate. Zelda, unfortunately, does not.

It's possible that you enjoyed LoZ at one point,

Possible? There's no possible about it; at one point we both loved the series.

but now you have moved on with your life, and thats cool, but from what you have stated in your original post it seems the problems you state lie with you and not with the series itself.

No, the problems lie very clearly with the series. We both liked Metroid, we still like Metroid. Why? The series is willing to re-invent itself. We both liked Zelda, we now dislike Zelda. Why? The series is collapsing under its own decadent weight.

I'm not gonna go on about why the series isn't stagnating, but I will throw something else out there:

Well, you've already thrown out your dignity and respect, so any more projectiles would be defunt, but go ahead.

It's funny that you throw out that Yahtzee quote, because the people he is referring to is you. The people who claim to enjoy something, but really don't know what they want and then blame the games or companies when they don't live up to their unrealistic and unknown desires.

We know perfactly well what we want. We've explained this multiple times, you just seem to be selectively ignorant/incapable of reading/blind/unable to understand/etc at the appropriate moments. Similarly, we aren't fans, not these days, as we no longer appreciate the series. We're the people who want to give the series what it needs, not what the fanbase wants.

Then again, it was the Yahtzee quote that inspired me to even post this response. Anyone who can quote somebody who unequivocally hates everything unless it's Half-Life 2 or Silent Hell 2 because of arbitrary reasons deserves to get their BS dissected and thrown in their face.

The only person who has had their BS dissected and thrown in their faces here is you, and it was done so in a particularly spectacular way, if I say so myself.

I have no hopes of changing your opinion, I just posted this in the hopes that somebody will read it and not be close-minded about the games and their positive sides.

You honestly think we are the close-minded ones one you vehemently oppose all and any changes to the series? The irony is amusing.

Take a deeper look, and you'll find what you're looking for, especially in LoZ.

I'm looking for evidence of stagnation, and I'm finding it, especially in LoZ.

Thank for your time, it was most appreciated. I look forward to dissecting any future posts you make.

Ugh, I don't know why but this debate is bothering me a lot. Every Zelda game has something amazingly unique about it. Some of these ideas are so amazing it hurts when they are forgotten in the next game.

For instance, MM really evolved the interaction with NPCs. The Wind Waker introduced a ton of collectible items: Skull necklaces, Knight's crest etc. Those unique ideas are amazing, and original, but that doesn't freakin' mean they shouldn't be continued and expanded on. That's just ridiculous. Your "philosophy" is killing me.

Oh the boomerang is sooo over used, they should totally drop it, even though it's been a key item since 1986 along with Link's trusty sword. Well you know, that's it, Link's sword has been in almost every Zelda game with little innovation, let's drop that too instead of expanding on it's use. I mean come on. This way of thinking is just stupid. Why go backwards instead of expanding on 23 years of amazing and continued innovation while adding new things along the way.

I want the 3D world introduced by Ocarina of Time. I want continued character interaction that was expanded my Majora's Mask. I want the item collecting and treasure hunting of TWW. I want the growing innovation of old items that was used in TP. Heck, I want the customizable parts of items and upgradable spirits that PH introduced. They're is absolutely nothing wrong with reusing amazing ideas as long as they are made better!

But that's the problem: they aren't being made better. Often, they're simply re-skinned and re-named, and occasionally even made worse.

Originally Posted by Crab Helmet

But that's the problem: they aren't being made better. Often, they're simply re-skinned and re-named, and occasionally even made worse.

Kay. So Character interaction has been faltering a bit lately...therefore it should be dropped. =|

When did I say dropped? I'm all for better character implementation.

Allow me to take this moment to applaud Crabby.

Now, moving on.

Originally Posted by Zeldablue777

Ugh, I don't know why but this debate is bothering me a lot. Every Zelda game has something amazingly unique about it. Some of these ideas are so amazing it hurts when they are forgotten in the next game.

I think it's good when things don't overstay their welcome.

For instance, MM really evolved the interaction with NPCs.

Hence why I said it was innovative.

The Wind Waker introduced a ton of collectible items: Skull necklaces, Knight's crest etc. Those unique ideas are amazing, and original, but that doesn't freakin' mean they shouldn't be continued and expanded on. That's just ridiculous. Your "philosophy" is killing me.

I could say the same to you. People who think the series should keep rehashing the same concepts over and over and never change anything lead to the series becoming stagnant.

Oh the boomerang is sooo over used, they should totally drop it, even though it's been a key item since 1986 along with Link's trusty sword. Well you know, that's it, Link's sword has been in almost every Zelda game with little innovation, let's drop that too instead of expanding on it's use. I mean come on. This way of thinking is just stupid. Why go backwards instead of expanding on 23 years of amazing and continued innovation while adding new things along the way.

If they could find an innovative way to use the boomerang, I would love it. Same with the sword (1:1 swordplay would be awesome). However, Zelda hasn't been innovating since 2000. Simply rehashing the same tired old concepts and adding occasional gimmicks every game is not not enough. The Zelda series needs a radical change.

I want the 3D world introduced by Ocarina of Time.

Hey, dunno if you've heard this, but it isn't 1993 anymore. Practically all console Zeldas have been in 3D for over a decade. So, wish granted.

I want continued character interaction that was expanded my Majora's Mask.

As do I.

I want the item collecting and treasure hunting of TWW

Fetch quests sure are fun, amirite?

I want the growing innovation of old items that was used in TP

Aside from the iron boots, I'm not sure I can see any innovation of old items.

Heck, I want the customizable parts of items and upgradable spirits that PH introduced.

So like an RPG?

They're is absolutely nothing wrong with reusing amazing ideas as long as they are made better!

Yes, there is something wrong. As ideas are used too much, they grow old, stale, boring, etc. In other words, what Zelda has become. Zelda needs change, and I'll be saying that as much as Barack Obama.

But why use the Boomerang at all? Instead if implementing a new, interesting item, they just took the Boomerang and change it around a little, which was totally unnecessary, and used only to provide nostalgia/whore old concepts.

Why keep it if it's not broken seems to be the everyone's reboot philosophy. Zelda should build onto it's merits instead of pulling them all away don't you think?

I think the phrase you were looking for was "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", which is pointless appeal to tradition. Doing something simply because that's the way it has always done is one of the massive flaws with most long-running games series, and Zelda is a prime offender. Being a clone of the previous a game is not a merit.

Originally Posted by Silver

Allow me to take this moment to applaud Crabby.

Now, moving on.


I think it's good when things don't overstay their welcome.

Yeah, okay. A lot of things in Zelda have overstayed they're welcome. It's a series. The Sword and Shield in Zelda have "overstayed" they are traditional, original and overused items. They should be thrown away instead of adding new innovation?

Hence why I said it was innovative.

I could say the same to you. People who think the series should keep rehashing the same concepts over and over and never change anything lead to the series becoming stagnant.

I'm not supporting the idea of rehashing the same old thing over and over. If it's an amazing concept than why stop using it? Adding magic attacks from AoL, ALttP and OoT were great ideas. And it's upsetting to see them disappear. The series is actually becoming more watered down by getting rid of what makes Zelda great. The staple of the series...the items, the way they were used in TP and PH was completely different from the way they were used in MM and TWW.

If they could find an innovative way to use the boomerang, I would love it. Same with the sword (1:1 swordplay would be awesome). However, Zelda hasn't been innovating since 2000. Simply rehashing the same tired old concepts and adding occasional gimmicks every game is not not enough. The Zelda series needs a radical change.

Okay so you would rather them get rid of items over using them in newer ways?

Fetch quests sure are fun, amirite?

No, they aren't always fun. But if I wanna do a flippin' fetch quest it better be in the game.

Aside from the iron boots, I'm not sure I can see any innovation of old items.

Motion control? If it was applied to the Sword, bow, hammer etc. it would be "innovative". In terms of puzzle solving, Nintendo is always wittier than its fans when it comes to puzzle ideas.

So like an RPG?

Another thing fading from the Zelda series. RPG elements. Yes, it's a nice idea and I want to be able to upgrade or customize whatever I want.

Yes, there is something wrong. As ideas are used too much, they grow old, stale, boring, etc. In other words, what Zelda has become. Zelda needs change, and I'll be saying that as much as Barack Obama.

Zelda needs change. Yeah, obviously. I think all the fans are looking into the wrong kind of change. You're thinking like a communist government. We need change, let's destroy every book, intelligent person, politician etc. and start over from ground zero. As oppose to taking all the merits of your system, getting rid of what doesn't work and making things that do work, work better. =\

What needs to go in Zelda is the reharshed system of collect these 3 things get that sword get more things and kill Ganon. I can't tell you how many original ways a Zelda story can have Link, Zelda, Ganon(dorf), Hyrule, The Master Sword and the Triforce in one game without being as ridiculously predictible as ALttP, OoT, TWW and TP.

In that post, you simultaneously portrayed all communism as Stalinism, totally missed the point of our posts, and then told us something that we've been trying to tell you.