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Originally Posted by IgnixMadax  So, your main argument is that Legend of Zelda has gotten stagnant, yet you want the core characters from the series anyway, rehashing the two most reoccurring characters. Makes sense. |
You are just unbelievable. I suggest you head back to primary school and hone your reading skills. Did he say he actively wanted to say Link and Zelda? No, he didn't. He may hate the character, but be willing to compromise. He said, at the maximum, ie, worst case scenario he'd accept, they'd be back. In his best case scenario, they may not feature at all.
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Yes, I can. I am, right now. There, I have debunked the core element of your argument. You find this element self-explanatory, I think you're wrong, and as such this argument is already falling apart. Of course, it is clearly your opinion and I can't deny you that, but, lets keep reading, shall we?
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Perhaps he should have said no
sane person could disagree. Refuting the fact that the Zelda series is increasingly stagnant is stupidity on an immense scale. Seeing as you are addicted to evidence, let's use the closest thing we can, the opinion of independant games reviewers who have no part in this argument.
"A fun, but dated and unoriginal flight through the land of Hyrule. The main quest may be longer than most, and the sidequests may be in abundance, but that doesn't help Twilight Princess from feeling like the same thing we all played nearly ten years ago." - RPG Fan.
"Pretty much everything is just like earlier Zelda games, and that’s good from a nostalgia point of view, and bad for originality." - Game Revolution
"Parts of [Twilight Princess's] presentation feel stuck in the past." - GameSpot
"There are times in the game when you want to shake Miyamoto and co by the lapels for including elements of the game which remain dogged by old-school convention." - Eurogamer
I'd go on, but I'm bored.
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Before I begin, lets talk about gimmicks. Gimmicks are innovations that did not become popular for one reason or another. Generally because they are superfluous or not fun or what have you. It's a term used a lot lately to describe the Wii, and it's become the popular thing to blast Nintendo for this generation.
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No, it's an accurate thing to blast Nintendo for this generation.
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Having established that, I will approach your first point. Majora's Mask being innovative. While I love Majora's mask, There's nothing particularly innovative about it. The Mask system was introduced in OoT, though not to the same extent, the Time Travel is also used in OoT, but not quite to the same extent. Sensing a pattern here? Horse riding, music playing, Z targeting, first person projectile use, etc. One might say that Majora's Mask is, in point of fact, a rehash. A rehash of the most popular chapter. Mind you, It is the most story driven of ANY Legend of Zelda, but none of the gameplay elements introduced are really innovations. Also, I feel the game suffers without a Zelda character, a strong female support for Link, or a person for him to really communicate with, but that is a separate issue. There's even a fairy, but for what reason? Who knows. I suppose you could stretch it and say that the Fairies were outcasts themselves, therefore they befriend the Skull Kid, but...
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The Mask system in
OoT was essentially just a skin change, it wasn't a system at all. In
MM, it allows you to become a Goron, a Zora, a Deku Scrub. Are you telling me that changing the entire way Link functions isn't innovation? That being able to change your species and form isn't innovation? Then you are obviously deluded.
Time travel in
OoT is incredibly mediocre. All it is used to do is to artificially restrict you from using certain items at certain places, and change the scene every now and again. Time travel in Majora's Mask is massively game-changing, and time actually flows in the game. In Ocarina of Time, years could pass by in tersm of actual day/night transitions in the game, and nothing happens. Majora's Mask has a real, happening time scale, which is massively innovative, more so than anything in Ocarina of Time.
The whole point of Majora's Mask is that Link has no female support. After Ocarina of Time, Link has to undergo the toughest challenge of all, growing up. You can't get helped in that, it's deeply personal, and you go it alone. The very premise of the game shows Link from going helpless and alone in the form of the Deku Scrub, to a fully realised adult in Fierce Deity. He can't jump between old and young like on Ocarina of Time - now, it's for real. Having support would totally ruin the atmosphere of isolation and darkness.
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I don't really know how Twilight Princess isn't "Innovative". I would argue that Midna herself is an innovation of the Side Kick character. Somebody working through you to her own means, which we really don't fully understand. Even Zelda won't fill you in. I don't know if "Underutilized" is really an excuse for items not being good enough or something. There are plenty of "good" zelda games where the items are really only used once or twice. Ice Arrows, anyone? Hell, there's a song in Majora's Mask, and a friggen Mask, that only works in one dungeon. I would argue that is "Underutilized"
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Yes, Midna was nice, but she's not the first side-kick to have motives we don't know about, or be someone who is not who they seem to be at first glance. She has three precedents, Shiek, Ezlo, and King of the Red Lions, respectively. As a character she was nice, but as an actual side kick, she was immensely irritating, ruining the game by explaing exactly what you had to do and leading you through it as though you were a toddler, incapable of even working out the most basic things for yourself. Maybe you like being mollycoddled, but I don't.
Glad to hear it. Your previous speech was sickening.
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Even your examples don't really bolster your argument well...I mean, didn't you ENJOY the transformation masks in MM? Why wouldn't you want to experience a different version of that? It's forced upon you, sure, but I defy you to do any of the Beach bits of MM entirely in the Goron Mask. I can't for the life of me think of what your problem with the wolf segments were...Faster movement speed, and AoE attack, and you get to leap on people and rip out their jugulars. What more could you really ask for? Sure it's not a LIGHTNING AURA, but at least it sorta makes sense.
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Yes, I enjoyed the transformation masks, because they were new. If you re-used the concept, they wouldn't be new. It's the whole "been there, done that, and all I got was this stupid T-shirt" thing. Perhaps, if they could build on the transformations, and improve them, I'd like it, but they didn't. Wolf Link is inferior to Link in every way. The only time you ever use him is for warping, and faster movement when you can't use Epona. He's the ultimate transport *****. Link can use items, is ridiculously superior in combat, and takes half of the damage Wolf Link would. Why would you ever willingly want to use Wolf Link outside of transport? At least some of Link's transformation were useful in combat, notably Zora Link.
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Twilight realm, Eh, Im not sure what you're referring to here. If you're referring to one dungeon, Im not sure what you're point is. If you're referring to the bits where HYRULE is covered in Twilight, and you have to restore it...Im not sure which Zelda game that is like. Is that really a rehash? In LttP it's just the way it is, you can't change it...
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What he's refering to is the fact the games both use a "switch back and forth between a light world and a dark world" cliche for plot advancement. It was cool in
aLttP, when the whole dark world thing was relatively new, now it's just a joke. It may have worked if the Twilight Realm had actually been dark, filled with terrifying, difficult memories, music that was actually scary rather than repetitive techno that just got on my nerves, and had an actual purpose, but instead it was just a lame excuse for a scene change and Wolf Link.
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I personally liked the Gale Boomering, but whatever, that's just me I suppose. I don't have any supporting argument for it, since at it's core, it's a stylized stick of wood that when you throw, comes back to you. The Whirlwind element, which is honestly the key, added a nifty puzzle factor of blowing away leaves and carrying bombs. It's a nifty combination of the Deku Leaf and a Boomerang, and it's a more interesting ranged option than the Slingshot at that juncture.
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But why use the Boomerang at all? Instead if implementing a new, interesting item, they just took the Boomerang and change it around a little, which was totally unnecessary, and used only to provide nostalgia/whore old concepts. And yes, it's more interesting than the Slingshot, in the same way an electric chair is a preferable method of execution to being boiled alive in hot oil.
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I guess I do have supportive arguments. Moving on...
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Again, I'm not really sure what you mean by innovating exactly. What about the Zelda formula did MM innovate? You make statements without really supporting them, though I guess you at least acknowledge it by calling it a rant. Seems sort of unfair of you to call out people who disagree as "unintelligent." What exactly do you mean by change?
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If you can't figure out what
MM innovated in (hint: I listed it above), then you really have no business talking Zelda. And if you can't figure out what he means by change, I think the title "unintelligent" may apply. He's talking about reworking the series, with deeper plots, new items, rich and fluid characters.
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People like you are the reason why soon Link will have a goatee and a Master Pistol and ride a Motorcycle named Eponer while spouting one liners or something through Neo-Hyrule. The thought makes me gag.
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Here is a perfect example of making a statement without supporting. I love the taste of hypocrisy, it's such a sweet taste, the taste of knowing your opponent is a fool and cannot possibly hope to defend their views.
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y want to know what you think MM did, because perhaps we played a different game. The game you are describing doesn't seem to be the reused engine from OoT direct sequel that I remember.
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OoT used Super Mario's sequel, so that's a moot point, as you can't claim Majora's Mask isn't innovative because it re-used an older engine without similarly damning Ocarina of Time.
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And I don't remember a Zelda that didn't have new enemies. I mean, sure, there are re-occurring enemies, but mostly they put a new spin on them anyway. The Moblins in OoT are not equivalent to the Moblins in LttP.
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Aside from the fact they've been made 3D, there is very little difference. And each game introduces a bare minimum of new enemies - the vast majority are re-used concepts with minor rehauls.
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You know what would have put a whole new spin on your argument? If you used Wind Waker instead of Majora's Mask. Wind Waker DID innovate, and DID try new things and work with them. It has lovely cel-shaded graphics that compare to some of the crap we've come out with today,
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Cell-shaded is nice graphics and all, but many Zelda games have impressive graphics.
aLttP was beautiful in its time, and so on. Similarly, it didn't try a totally new art style, it just brought the art style from
tMC and
FS/A into 3D, so it didn't innovate in that respect at all.
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a pretty decent wind physics engine,
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This would have been nice, if it were not for the fact it's only use was in the incredibly tedious sailing mechanics that featured Link spending a good 10 minutes traipsing through largely featureless seas in search of each island.
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and probably my favorite water animation from any game ever.
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Oh, wow. Pretty water. That's it,
tWW must be ****ing amazing. Nothing can top pretty water.
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It gave Link actual swordplay in the form of the misnamed Parry,
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See the Minish Cap's extensive list of sword skill.
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and made his emotes even more expressive.
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That's just a natural progression of graphics, same as the transition from
aLttP to
OoT is the natural progression from 2D to 3D.
Shame it's 90% remix, with very few new tracks, and all in synth MIDIs.
And empty. Huge and incredibly empty, meaning you spend most of your time aimlessly wandering through identical looking stretches of sea.
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That's innovation right there.
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hurhurhurhurhur
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Heck, even the story has twists.
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Four dungeons collecting items, plot twist, three dungeons collecting items, plot twist, final boss dungeon.
Hmm...
Seem familiar?
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It makes Ganondorf... sympathetic! Can you imagine? The dude hates the desert! He wants to live in the not-desert! Is that so wrong? I mean, he wants to take over the world too, but whatever!
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Yeah, and this would have been nice five or so games ago, when Ganondorf was actually an interesting, new character. Now it's just a last minute explanation of his motives several games too late to have any relevance.
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It seems to me what you want is not a series. Because, really, that's what a SERIES is. It's reusing comfortable images and characters and linking them in that manner.
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No. Look at Metroid. It went from a Metroidvania to a first-person shooter to a 2.5D game (M:OM). It went from isolated and alone in Super Metroid, to a team in Metroid Prime 3. It went from a minimalist plot in Metroid, to a fully fleshed out plot in Metroid: Fusion. Here is a series willing to innovate. Zelda, unfortunately, does not.
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It's possible that you enjoyed LoZ at one point,
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Possible? There's no possible about it; at one point we both loved the series.
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but now you have moved on with your life, and thats cool, but from what you have stated in your original post it seems the problems you state lie with you and not with the series itself.
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No, the problems lie very clearly with the series. We both liked Metroid, we still like Metroid. Why? The series is willing to re-invent itself. We both liked Zelda, we now dislike Zelda. Why? The series is collapsing under its own decadent weight.
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I'm not gonna go on about why the series isn't stagnating, but I will throw something else out there:
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Well, you've already thrown out your dignity and respect, so any more projectiles would be defunt, but go ahead.
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It's funny that you throw out that Yahtzee quote, because the people he is referring to is you. The people who claim to enjoy something, but really don't know what they want and then blame the games or companies when they don't live up to their unrealistic and unknown desires.
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We know perfactly well what we want. We've explained this multiple times, you just seem to be selectively ignorant/incapable of reading/blind/unable to understand/etc at the appropriate moments. Similarly, we aren't fans, not these days, as we no longer appreciate the series. We're the people who want to give the series what it needs, not what the fanbase wants.
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Then again, it was the Yahtzee quote that inspired me to even post this response. Anyone who can quote somebody who unequivocally hates everything unless it's Half-Life 2 or Silent Hell 2 because of arbitrary reasons deserves to get their BS dissected and thrown in their face.
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The only person who has had their BS dissected and thrown in their faces here is you, and it was done so in a particularly spectacular way, if I say so myself.
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I have no hopes of changing your opinion, I just posted this in the hopes that somebody will read it and not be close-minded about the games and their positive sides.
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You honestly think we are the close-minded ones one you vehemently oppose all and any changes to the series? The irony is amusing.
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Take a deeper look, and you'll find what you're looking for, especially in LoZ.
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I'm looking for evidence of stagnation, and I'm finding it, especially in
LoZ.
Thank for your time, it was most appreciated. I look forward to dissecting any future posts you make.
06-20-2009, 06:55 PM
