Why The Dungeon/ Overworld Concept Is Obsolete

I've been mulling over some aspects of the Zelda series which seem outdated, useless, or generally hindering the games, and the one which repeatedly comes to mind is the Dungeon /Overworld concept - that in which you go from a relatively safe and puzzle-free overworld, into a more dangerous labyrinth filled with riddles.

Hyrule Fantasy: The Legend of Zelda was developed along side Super Mario Bros, and was designed to be in some ways a counterpart. Everything that was in SMB, would be avoided in tLoZ, and vice versa. SMB was 2D, tLoZ was birds-eye view, SMB was linear, tLoZ was exploration-based, SMB was a platformer, tLoZ was action-adventure, and so on. However, both did feature one common concept - levels. While they worked in slightly different ways, both games had levels of a sort - in SMB, you progressed from level to level automatically, where as in tLoZ, you went into levels from the overworld. This was because in tLoZ, puzzles as we now know them hadn't really evolved yet, meaning that in a way, the dungeons were very similar to the overworld - they both had enemies, and they both had a sense of exploration. The only real difference between dungeons and the overworlds, was that dungeons were confined to small rooms, and contained bosses and items.

In the following game, AoL, the Zelda team departed from the previous base, and was highly criticised for this. Therefore, their next game, aLttP was very much based on the precedent set by tLoZ - we still didn't have puzzles much more complicated than moving blocks, and dungeons weren't much different to the overworld, as enemies were still difficult in both places. It wasn't until the next console game, Ocarina of Time, the problem would become truly noticeable.

OoT was released in 3D, using the Super Mario 64 engine, and one of the few bad things about it, was the boring overworld. There were no challenging overworld enemies, and almost no puzzles at all, meaning that the OoT overworld consisted mostly of trudging from point A to point B. At this point, it was acceptable - like SM64's Castle, OoT's Hyrule Field was mostly used for conserving space, a hubworld that allowed everything to fit together smoothly. Majora's Mask, which was still using the same engine, also used Termina Field in the same way.

However, here we begin to see the contrast with the original imagining of tLoZ. tLoZ was based on Miyamoto's experiences of exploration in his childhood - "When I was a child," he said, "I went hiking and found a lake. It was quite a surprise for me to stumble upon it. When I traveled around the country without a map, trying to find my way, stumbling on amazing things as I went, I realized how it felt to go on an adventure like this." However, Ocarina of Time's overworld is nothing like this. While the dungeons still have that sense of wandering around lost, and having to solve various puzzles, Ocarina of Time's overworld has very little to entertain the gamer. It's just space to walk on, just a path, filled with weak enemies that are easy to despatch.

Finally, this all comes to a breaking point with Twilight Princess. Twilight Princess has a vastly increased overworld from Ocarina of Time, which made the problem even clearer. TP's overworld was horribly, horribly empty. No puzzles, no difficult enemies, no sense of non-linearness and getting lost - it was awful, and the fact it was bigger, just meant it was more tedious getting from point A to point B. In contrast, most of the dungeons (well, the early ones at least), were far better than the ones of older games - the first three dungeons of TP are infinitely better than the first three of OoT.

So, it's very clear. The overworld needs to be abolished, scrapped, junked. But how? Without an overworld, how do we separate dungeons, allowing for different locations? Answer: we don't need to. Make the entire game one long interconnecting dungeon. Everywhere should be explorable, everywhere should have hidden items, everywhere should have difficult enemies and bosses. Simply make the whole game seem like a dungeon. This isn't a new concept - the Metroid Prime games did this exceptionally well, and provide an excellent precedent for the next Zelda to follow. The Metroid Prime games made all the explorable areas interconnected - it is all a puzzle. The dungeons and the overworld are indistinguishable - indeed, there are no dungeons, no overworld. There's just the game. And this is what should happen in the next Zelda, giving you that wonderful sense of constant exploration once more.

Zelda, will not and should not abandon it's overworld. True you can no longer get lost in an overworld, but that is not it's purpose anymore. The overworld is where you can find people and sidequests. I agree that the overworld in modern games is a little empty, but removing it all together is not the solution. How about simply adding challenging enemies to the overworld? Or maybe even the ocasional puzzle. Zelda is made by a vast, beautiful country with secrets, even if you aren't required to find them. I however would spice up the secrets. Like there was a cave around the Bridge of Eldin, which had lava, magnets and Dodongos in it. As long as each of the caves have individualality then it is worth looking around to dfind them. If a Zelda game was pure dungeon then there would no longer be much of a plot.

You basically want a huge version of the Ocean King's Temple from Phantom Hourglass.

Yea, no. Zelda needs to keep the entire world that has been a staple of the series. I wouldn't be playing the games if they decided to throw away one of it's biggest factors. It just wouldn't be a Zelda game anymore.

First of all, you're argumenting like there's no other parts of the overworld than just the Hyrule Fields in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess, which are pretty empty. You're saying, the only entertaining parts of the game are the dungeons, but certain environments like villages are pretty much entertaining for other players too, even if you don't have to fight enemies there or stuff like that. But this is part of Zelda too, some people enjoy Zelda for its rich villages or its vast overworlds. Places, where you can relax from the stressful dungeons, by solving some sidequests or fishing. You can't just skip over that. This is was seperates Zelda from being Metroid (that and the fact, that it's not Sci-Fi ^^).

Also, there have been mixed environments in previous games. For example the Gerudo Fortress in Ocarina of Time, the Pirate Fortress in Majora's Mask or the Forsaken Fortress in The Wind Waker. Those are all good examples for dungeon like overworld environments, I'm fine with having some more of these. But let the overworld / dungeon concept be.

The Overworld in the lastest games are empty, that is completely true, but is the solution to take them out or make it a big dungeon? I say the solution is to just fill it, every part of the overworld should have something interesting to do, help people to get certain rewards, solve puzzles to get to new places or chests, or even fight to have fun, the overworld should have more of this, but at the same time it has to be done right, not only 2 or 3 people should be able to be helped (Majora's Mask is the best example of this done right). The puzzles shouldn't be those obvious thing you can do easily if you have the necesary item. The monsters in the field shouldn't be only Bokoblins or Octorocks, it should have different enemies in different places, and some parts of the overworld could have really challenging enemies while other places could have easy ones.

You have to have an overworld. How else will Hyrule feel like its an actual place? It could use more towns and villages scattered throughout and the villages should more than just 4 or 5 citizens...

Originally Posted by Khao

The Overworld in the lastest games are empty, that is completely true, but is the solution to take them out or make it a big dungeon? I say the solution is to just fill it, every part of the overworld should have something interesting to do, help people to get certain rewards, solve puzzles to get to new places or chests, or even fight to have fun, the overworld should have more of this, but at the same time it has to be done right, not only 2 or 3 people should be able to be helped (Majora's Mask is the best example of this done right). The puzzles shouldn't be those obvious thing you can do easily if you have the necesary item. The monsters in the field shouldn't be only Bokoblins or Octorocks, it should have different enemies in different places, and some parts of the overworld could have really challenging enemies while other places could have easy ones.

Perhaps using the phrase "getting rid of the overworld" was a bad one. What I essentially meant, was mkae the line between dungeon and overworld indistinguishable. For example, why should the Fire temple have puzzles, and difficult monsters, when Hyrule Field has none? If you've played the Metroid Prime series, you'll be aware of what I mean - there are no real dungeons, and there is no real overworld, just a series of interconnecting areas filled with puzzles and enemies.

At OSM: No. I don't want a Temple of the Ocean King. That place was lame and awful and everything I don't want dungeons to be.

Originally Posted by Cheiragonus

I've been mulling over some aspects of the Zelda series which seem outdated, useless, or generally hindering the games, and the one which repeatedly comes to mind is the Dungeon /Overworld concept - that in which you go from a relatively safe and puzzle-free overworld, into a more dangerous labyrinth filled with riddles.

Hyrule Fantasy: The Legend of Zelda was developed along side Super Mario Bros, and was designed to be in some ways a counterpart. Everything that was in SMB, would be avoided in tLoZ, and vice versa. SMB was 2D, tLoZ was birds-eye view, SMB was linear, tLoZ was exploration-based, SMB was a platformer, tLoZ was action-adventure, and so on. However, both did feature one common concept - levels. While they worked in slightly different ways, both games had levels of a sort - in SMB, you progressed from level to level automatically, where as in tLoZ, you went into levels from the overworld. This was because in tLoZ, puzzles as we now know them hadn't really evolved yet, meaning that in a way, the dungeons were very similar to the overworld - they both had enemies, and they both had a sense of exploration. The only real difference between dungeons and the overworlds, was that dungeons were confined to small rooms, and contained bosses and items.

In the following game, AoL, the Zelda team departed from the previous base, and was highly criticised for this. Therefore, their next game, aLttP was very much based on the precedent set by tLoZ - we still didn't have puzzles much more complicated than moving blocks, and dungeons weren't much different to the overworld, as enemies were still difficult in both places. It wasn't until the next console game, Ocarina of Time, the problem would become truly noticeable.

OoT was released in 3D, using the Super Mario 64 engine, and one of the few bad things about it, was the boring overworld. There were no challenging overworld enemies, and almost no puzzles at all, meaning that the OoT overworld consisted mostly of trudging from point A to point B. At this point, it was acceptable - like SM64's Castle, OoT's Hyrule Field was mostly used for conserving space, a hubworld that allowed everything to fit together smoothly. Majora's Mask, which was still using the same engine, also used Termina Field in the same way.

However, here we begin to see the contrast with the original imagining of tLoZ. tLoZ was based on Miyamoto's experiences of exploration in his childhood - "When I was a child," he said, "I went hiking and found a lake. It was quite a surprise for me to stumble upon it. When I traveled around the country without a map, trying to find my way, stumbling on amazing things as I went, I realized how it felt to go on an adventure like this." However, Ocarina of Time's overworld is nothing like this. While the dungeons still have that sense of wandering around lost, and having to solve various puzzles, Ocarina of Time's overworld has very little to entertain the gamer. It's just space to walk on, just a path, filled with weak enemies that are easy to despatch.

Finally, this all comes to a breaking point with Twilight Princess. Twilight Princess has a vastly increased overworld from Ocarina of Time, which made the problem even clearer. TP's overworld was horribly, horribly empty. No puzzles, no difficult enemies, no sense of non-linearness and getting lost - it was awful, and the fact it was bigger, just meant it was more tedious getting from point A to point B. In contrast, most of the dungeons (well, the early ones at least), were far better than the ones of older games - the first three dungeons of TP are infinitely better than the first three of OoT.

So, it's very clear. The overworld needs to be abolished, scrapped, junked. But how? Without an overworld, how do we separate dungeons, allowing for different locations? Answer: we don't need to. Make the entire game one long interconnecting dungeon. Everywhere should be explorable, everywhere should have hidden items, everywhere should have difficult enemies and bosses. Simply make the whole game seem like a dungeon. This isn't a new concept - the Metroid Prime games did this exceptionally well, and provide an excellent precedent for the next Zelda to follow. The Metroid Prime games made all the explorable areas interconnected - it is all a puzzle. The dungeons and the overworld are indistinguishable - indeed, there are no dungeons, no overworld. There's just the game. And this is what should happen in the next Zelda, giving you that wonderful sense of constant exploration once more.

I don't think the overworld needs to be challenging. That's where the towns and most people are. That's where the subquests and training games are.

However, I get where you're going with Metroid. Making a large part of the Overworld like that would be awesome, especially places off the beaten path. You could have paths that make the world more real, but staying on the path would cause you to miss a lot of things. Off the beaten path could be puzzles and considerably tougher enemies.

The safe areas, where towns and most people are, could be pockets, where most of the overworld is like Metroid Prime. I like that idea so much better than TP, and OoT to a lesser extent.

The overworld concept in itself is fine. Nintendo's problem is that they never properly fill the overworld with content. It's an empty terrain and used mostly as a time filler for the most part -- this is especially noticeable in Twilight Princess. Howsoever, this does not reflect the entire concept of the overworld, but rather, it reflects Nintendo's poor development methods in certain aspects of the series that have been recurring over the years.

in my opinion, OoT's overworld was a lot more empty than TP's. Barely any trees, not a lot of water, no monsters wandering around at all times......

TP was just being more realistic. How about you go into your backyard and try to find a Peahat. What, no luck? I'm so sorry.

I personally don't care if there isn't a lot of enemies, or items in the overworld. It's the way I like it, and I am willing to explore every inch of it just to see things that I have not seen before. The whole overworld in TP mystifies me, and there's so much out there to see. I long to see where my next casual traveling takes me to.

So you want the entire game to be more like Metroid Prime? You want the world to be more like one large glorified labyrinth?
No thanks.

This overworld concept you're criticizing is one of the things that make Zelda great. It's meant to provide a contrast with the very intense and gameplay-heavy dungeons. I can agree with you in that I'd like more of an exploration element to the overworld, but it shouldn't feel restrictive like it does in the dungeons.
Running across the field should be a meditative experience, it's about enjoying the scenery and the atmosphere, I don't want that to be interrupted because a puzzle or a tough enemies popped into my face, but least of all I'd like to do the Metroid and catch myself walking in circles just because I don't want to bring up my map every two or three minutes.

Originally Posted by The Goron Moron

in my opinion, OoT's overworld was a lot more empty than TP's. Barely any trees, not a lot of water, no monsters wandering around at all times......

TP was just being more realistic. How about you go into your backyard and try to find a Peahat. What, no luck? I'm so sorry.

I personally don't care if there isn't a lot of enemies, or items in the overworld. It's the way I like it, and I am willing to explore every inch of it just to see things that I have not seen before. The whole overworld in TP mystifies me, and there's so much out there to see. I long to see where my next casual traveling takes me to.

No, but I saw a Dinofos prowling the street one night. Luckily the police showed up before anyone was hurt!

I get what your saying, but like other people have mentioned, the problem is that it needs to be filled up rather then putting puzzles and enemies all over the place.

For example TP's overworld wouldn't nearly have been so boring if they added a few travelers, a camp or 2 a house/outpost. Also TP had a river but it was sadly put in a canyon which was very nice, but because it the overworld lacked a river besides that one small bit in the north. Same for lake Hylia, the water was put way to low. If it would have been on an overworld level that would have made things a lot more interesting to look at as well to explore.

I disagree slightly with this, the overworld needs to stop being so boring, it needs more puzzles and enemies to conquer and like countless other members have said, it needs more things to do.

Yet at the same time, it needs to be vast. Looking at Hyrule from the desert in TP is pretty beautiful, imagine what it would be like with what Jin said. A higher level lake, a larger river, camps, towns and life. It would look pretty amazing and would make walking through it so much less of a chore.

If anything, I think the opposite should be done; downplay the dungeon factor, and have an overworld that's as explorable as the older games and as interactive as the towns in OOT. The Overworld shouldn't be a means of progressing to the next dungeon; the dungeons should be a means of being able to delve further into the overworld. And hey, why not blur the definition of overworld and dungeon? We could have puzzles, enemy battles, bosses and objectives that take place in the outside world.

Originally Posted by GamenerdAdvance

If anything, I think the opposite should be done; downplay the dungeon factor, and have an overworld that's as explorable as the older games and as interactive as the towns in MM. The Overworld shouldn't be a means of progressing to the next dungeon; the dungeons should be a means of being able to delve further into the overworld. And hey, why not blur the definition of overworld and dungeon? We could have puzzles, enemy battles, bosses and objectives that take place in the outside world.

I agree totally, except I added one correction.

You know what else is obsolete? The world/overworld concept. But you know what? It's nintendo we're talking about. They can turn something old into something new. Don't believe me? Look at Mario Galaxy. They still had the same basics of Mario 64, the concepts of the different "worlds" was one of them, the controls were another, and the story was cheap and the same as every other Mario Game (from the official series).

But it was a phenomenal game nonetheless. Nintendo can take the dungeon/overworld concept to a new level. It's not the concept that matters, but how it is used and what it is used in conjunction with that matters.

Originally Posted by Stuit

So you want the entire game to be more like Metroid Prime? You want the world to be more like one large glorified labyrinth?
No thanks.

This overworld concept you're criticizing is one of the things that make Zelda great. It's meant to provide a contrast with the very intense and gameplay-heavy dungeons. I can agree with you in that I'd like more of an exploration element to the overworld, but it shouldn't feel restrictive like it does in the dungeons.
Running across the field should be a meditative experience, it's about enjoying the scenery and the atmosphere, I don't want that to be interrupted because a puzzle or a tough enemies popped into my face, but least of all I'd like to do the Metroid and catch myself walking in circles just because I don't want to bring up my map every two or three minutes.

^ This

I'm not sure about you guys, but when I was seven I was killed by Peahats and Stalchild(s) on a daily(nightly) basis. And ontop of that I could never figure out where anything was, if OoT had a 2D over the top view I doubt I would've ran into that problem, but I did. And it wasn't till I turned 10-ish when I threw my peahat/stalchild phobia away, okay!

Now as an Adult on the field, it is the only place that has almost no monsters, you want to know why? Because the market, the forest, lakes, gravyard, desert EVERYTHING else is infested with Ganon's evil, and I believe the field is there to take you away from in all, like a breath of fresh air, and as a seven year old I took Epona and I went around that field about 10 times finding grottos and poes just for fun...it was one of the greatest experiences on the 64. Kay.

And one of the greatest things about Twilight Princess's fields is that it was a battlefield for my favorite sections of the game. It wasn't some pointless space like the endless seas of The Wind Waker. It was where Colin was kidnapped strapped to a pole and dragged around by King Bulblin and his boar. It was where I had to escort the carriage to Kakariko...and it was fun! Really fun, like I was extremely upset when it ended...I didn't even want to go to the dungeons because I was having fun. A LOT of fans put off the dungeons to enjoy the overworld.

There is one Zelda that doesn't have an overworld, Four Sword Adventure. However, it handles the stages like pieces of the overworld....it just makes every part of the game feel like a puzzle, the towns, the swamps. Everything. It's fun, but not nearly as satisfying as having a place to run around freely. have you played it? (Sorry...just kinda realized this was on page 3)

Originally Posted by Crab Helmet

So, it's very clear. The overworld needs to be abolished, scrapped, junked.

There's also the alternative of adding life, variety, and reward to the overworld to. You know, to encourage the player to explore a bit. I for one would welcome the addition of, say, multiple caves or other structures that are open for exploration with all manors of hidden goodies within, such as new weapons, items, Heart Pieces, etc.

OH SNAP, I JUST HAD AN IDEA!

How about the next Zelda takes environmental changes into account? There could still be some sort of overworld, but it is constantly evolving and changing from environmental influences. We've seen this done in several Zelda games, heck, the night and day transition offered different monsters and sometimes revealed glowing bugs to collect.

It was also mentioned in the Valley of the Flood controversy, how the constantly flooding overworld would be the omen of doom for Hyrule. A constantly flooding overworld offers new opportunities in transporation as it floods more. If you had a system where after every dungeon more water would rise, you now have the ability to close off entrances for some time, open new ones, and then have the power to reaccess the old areas. For example, say you have a cave at the base of a mountain. Link goes in, does what he has to do, and leaves, several dungeons later, we discover the need to re-enter this area, but guess what? It's flooded! Until Link gets some Zora armor and Iron Boots, he can't go in again. And the flooded cave is now altered in some way, allowing for new opportunities to treasure, and ultimately the reason he had to go there.