Difficulty level

I would like to make it very easy,easy,normal,hard,and very hard

Originally Posted by NintendoTogepi

WW's hidden skills were performed by simple button combos as well.

WW didn't have Hidden Skills.. The Backslide & Helm Splitter in WW were parry attacks used in combination of timing and position. They were harder to perform, and you were unable to defend yourself before executing them.

Originally Posted by NintendoTogepi

Not really that big of a difference.

Wrong. It is a difference... having the game auto-guard you the entire time you fight takes less focus than it would for a game where you need to guard for yourself. Especially since WW's parry attacks are required for you to have your shield down... thus taking the risk of recieving damage when you fail your parry.

Originally Posted by NintendoTogepi

WW's bosses....they're really not that hard at all. Then again TP's bosses weren't either. I'd say they're tied in that WW's deal slightly more damage but TP's bosses are a lot longer and more involved.

The only TP bosses I found to be considered "longer" was Stalord & Argorok, mostly because the strategy into getting to their weakpoint was more time consuming. That aside, they were still barely a threat. They hardly attacked, and didn't take many hits to defeat. I can't say WW's bosses were more endurable either, but in no way were TP's bosses any harder than WW's.

Originally Posted by NintendoTogepi

Heh? No. WW had pretty much no hard puzzles. TP has quite a few. There's really no places you can't get "stuck" in WW except for Ganon's Tower if you don't know what to do...

Oh, and that's pretty weird if WW took you longer to beat. TP is like twice as long.

Total opinion... I got stuck in WW wondering where to find the Power Bracelets & the Iron Boots, which are Ocean-scale things to search for.. But before then I had trouble figuring out where to go next, then I stumbled upon the Fire & Ice Arrows. Took me maybe 3-4 days to go through all of that trouble...

Most of TP's puzzles were unoriginal concepts, making them recognizable & easy. The only puzzles I had a hard time with were the Master Sword puzzle, and the Giant Fan activation in the Sky Temple. But still, I managed to bypass both puzzles within an hour or so.
Most of TP itself was incredibly linear though, dungeons and overworld included. It was incredibly difficult to get lost in.

Dungeon-wise yes TP is roughly twice as long, but also there is MUUCHH more side content in WW than there is in TP, and so half of the time I'd end up exploring and fulfillin the side content rather than following WW's plot. TP had incredibly little side content, so I was able to complete the story faster.

Originally Posted by Mirren

If by that you mean tedious, then yes.

Not to me. I don't think MM is tedious at all.

Like HG said, Tatl always gives you the exact direction of where to go, so that's a no brainer.

Tatl only states the obvious. She doesn't hold your hand to get to the next temple.

Once you get to said location, it doesn't become a matter of exploration, it's walking around playing guess and check. There's always a limited amount of spots you can interact with, so it basically becomes a matter of going to each one of them and seeing which one works. Hell, most of the time you can't do a damn thing at the different areas, so as soon as you reach them you realize that you have to turn around and go to another one.

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

ex·plo·ra·tion
1. an act or instance of exploring or investigating; examination.
2. a careful systematic search

A lot of the extra stuff you'll just find by accident. Just going to random places at different times of a certain day will greet you with a something. You may find that tedious, but I find it rewarding. Maybe if the main-quest had a lot of guess-and-check, that would be annoying (the Well is really the only mandatory place like that), but that's not the case. You are rewarded for investigating or exploring.

I realize that you have a different taste in gaming from me, but I cannot fathom how you can consider walking around on one-dimensional land, occasionally speaking to one-line NPCs and having no clue whatsoever about what your goal is, to be exploration, or even gameplay for that matter.

You are exploring for clues. I'm not sure how you played the game, but I remember talking to a lot of characters to get information. As for the land being one-dimensional; you are just being silly. What Zelda game doesn't have a one-dimensional overworld? And yes, I do find exploring Termina to be very interesting since every landmark reveals more to the mystery of the game.

Gimme examples of both games, in that case (TP and MM), because right now you just look like you're making one massive exaggeration.

Heretic-Gamer Forums - View Single Post - Where does Zelda go from here?

Originally posted by KeeSomething
Tatl only states the obvious. She doesn't hold your hand to get to the next temple.

She might as well, because up to the that point it's barely even gameplay.

A lot of the extra stuff you'll just find by accident. Just going to random places at different times of a certain day will greet you with a something. You may find that tedious, but I find it rewarding. Maybe if the main-quest had a lot of guess-and-check, that would be annoying (the Well is really the only mandatory place like that), but that's not the case. You are rewarded for investigating or exploring.

So, you're basically just saying that you like it?

Not much more can be done here, I'm afraid.

You are exploring for clues. I'm not sure how you played the game, but I remember talking to a lot of characters to get information. As for the land being one-dimensional; you are just being silly. What Zelda game doesn't have a one-dimensional overworld? And yes, I do find exploring Termina to be very interesting since every landmark reveals more to the mystery of the game.

Every Zelda game has one dimensional terrain. Hell, every action/adventure game besides SoTC has one dimensional terrian, that's why I'm desperate to see it once again in full.

Heretic-Gamer Forums - View Single Post - Where does Zelda go from here?

I'm sorry, but I rarely take anything that Dan says seriously anymore. Because when I look at that stuff he just wrote, all I see is him having no problem with the way MM horribly beats around the bush and forces you to guess and check your way through the game instead of intricately and cleaverly exploring the world based on distinct hints and clues just to get the real gameplay.

I much prefer seeing TP tell you where to go than having to aimlessly prance around Termina without any idea whatsoever of where you're going or what you're looking for.

Of course, this could all be avoided entirely if Nintendo could learn to find a damn medium.

i'm good either way but i prefer hard

Originally Posted by Daphnes

If you think the water temple was easy, I can't really think of a puzzle that you might call hard.

I recall that I really enjoyed the Water Temple I can't remember exactly why but its probably because I'm a puzzle nut.

Originally Posted by Daphnes

Note that the harder ones were older than the easier ones. That's because the difficulty of Zelda games has decreased over time. And that's not just because I've been getting better over time.

That's true for every game. How hard a game is depends on the player's skill. For zelda vets TP is easy, but that is only because we've been in Link's shoes many times before and have developed a kind of zelda knowhow which lets us know how to play the game. For someone who has never played Zelda before TP could be hard but that's only because they don't know how the game works. For example The first Zelda game I played was LA and it took me forever to beat it the first time. LA, was in essence the hardest Zelda game for me but that is only because it was the first Zelda game I had played and thus lacked zelda knowhow.

@NintendoTogepi
How long have you been playing Zelda? We might understand your point of view about TP better if you told us.

Originally Posted by Mythos

I recall that I really enjoyed the Water Temple I can't remember exactly why but its probably because I'm a puzzle nut.



That's true for every game. How hard a game is depends on the player's skill. For zelda vets TP is easy, but that is only because we've been in Link's shoes many times before and have developed a kind of zelda knowhow which lets us know how to play the game. For someone who has never played Zelda before TP could be hard but that's only because they don't know how the game works. For example The first Zelda game I played was LA and it took me forever to beat it the first time. LA, was in essence the hardest Zelda game for me but that is only because it was the first Zelda game I had played and thus lacked zelda knowhow.

@NintendoTogepi
How long have you been playing Zelda? We might understand your point of view about TP better if you told us.

Not long. Yeah.

About 11 months. LoZ was my first but I didn't like at first, TP was my second Zelda, and I'm playing through it for another time. (not quite as hard as the first time, but still more difficult then oot)

Anyway, I'd like this thread locked. It's become a flame war and gotten extremely off topic.

NOT UNTIL I INJECT MY OPINION YOU SCURVY SEA DOG

...

(jk)

I think that Zelda games should be challenging, but it should be a fun challenge. Not a tedious one. Although I prefer MM over OOT by far, I think one thing OOT did better was make the dungeons and the boss battles challenging while making it fun. MM dungeons and boss battles were just far too long and complicated, making it super hard and not that fun. Goht being the only exception. (That was a fun one!)(Feel free to disagree with all this, of course)

I think that when a game is challenging but it's a fun challenge, players will be motivated to give up. When they die for the tenth time, they shouldn't throw down their controller and say "This is too hard, I give up!" They should say, "Dang, I have to try again!" And I think the latter response will come if the game holds the player's attention enough, if it's not tedious etc.

Originally Posted by NintendoTogepi

Anyway, I'd like this thread locked. It's become a flame war and gotten extremely off topic.

It's not a flame war, it's a spirited discussion with remarks that are appropriate to the topic overall. I can't see reason ( at this moment ) to lock it.
That said, guys, keep it friendly please. ( Togepi, use the "Report a Post" function if you think a thread needs attention from a mod. )

Anyways...I'd like to see the next Zelda game have medium difficulty, perhaps about the level of OoT. ( I thought HelmarocKing's scale was right on. )
Hard enough you need your fairies and potions, but not so insanely difficult that you are pulling your hair out. ( LoZ in my case ) Having to repeat the same area over and over again detracts from the fun.

Originally Posted by NintendoTogepi

Okay, let's say its Q4 2008 and Zelda Wii has been announced for a few months now.

Suddenly you win a contest from Nintendo to visit the developers of the game in Japan blah blah and so you go there, and everything goes good, you see the game running and get to ask Aonuma some questions...and then you're asked a question, without having actually gotten to play the game.

"Should we make the game very easy or very hard?"

Which would you pick?

Personally, I'd say very easy. An easy game can still be amazing. As long as it's well made, fun to play, long, and overall good, an easy game (even if it's very easy) is just as good as a normal difficulty game. Heck, Wind Waker is my second favorite Zelda and it's by far the easiest. On my second playthrough I only died one time and that was on the last floor of the Savage Labyrinth.

The game is still excellent though, best music in a Zelda, great dungeons, best story in a Zelda, best ending in a Zelda, excellent controls, best graphics in a Zelda and overall totally amazing.

On the other hand, ALttP. It is a good game from what I've played so far, good music, interesting story, good graphics for a SNES game, but it's just way too hard for me to enjoy. Instead of letting me play more and enjoy the game, I cannot beat it and so have not played it for weeks. It's my least favorite of the six Zeldas I own, PURELY because of it's frustrating hair pulling difficulty.

I would definitely pick very easy, although I prefer a "normal" difficulty.

But what about you? Please tell me.

P.S. Very easy would be around Wind Waker difficulty, and Very hard would be around AoL/ALttP difficulty.

I would like for the new Zelda to be extremely hard. The kind of new Zelda that literally puts your puzzle solving/dungeon exploring skills to the test without having no help....! I would like the game to really make you think, and use your wits to get yourself out of hard situations.

My list would be something like:

easy

TP
PH
WW

medium

OoT
LttP
LA

hard

MM
LoZ
AoL


Here's what they should do with the next Zelda game. Make a game with OoT MQ type puzzles, with smart enemies that take multiple hearts off of you, you get two bottles and recovery hearts are rare. The boss will attack frequently and take many hits to kill.

From there, all you have to do is add and remove a few things to get the medium and easy difficulties. Enemies take less hits and are slower, you lose less health, more hearts are dispersed, one or two more bottles are available, certain aspects of puzzles are removed, certain difficult puzzles are altogether removed and replaced with a room filled with enemies, etc.

They could even simplify combat to just whether the enemy has a shield or not, whether your shield blocks all attacks or not, stuff like that. It'd be ridiculously simple for them to implement, I don't get why they haven't yet. If they have some crazy Nintendo-y reason for wanting to seem like they don't have difficulty levels, they could even make it a secret. Go into the items menu and hold L and R and you get the hard mode option. I bet someone at Nintendo made a bet like ten years ago and they're just sticking by it by not adding any logical options. :/

The same level as Majora's Mask !
I think MM had the best Zelda(3d) Difficulty.

Originally Posted by Mirren

She might as well, because up to the that point it's barely even gameplay.

Exactly. Majora's Mask has no focus on gameplay at all, Mirren.

Every Zelda game has one dimensional terrain. Hell, every action/adventure game besides SoTC has one dimensional terrian, that's why I'm desperate to see it once again in full.

So you criticise Majora's Mask for something that all Zelda games, and most video games in general, are guilty of? Don't even try to deny your bias against Majora's Mask.

I'm sorry, but I rarely take anything that Dan says seriously anymore. Because when I look at that stuff he just wrote, all I see is him having no problem with the way MM horribly beats around the bush and forces you to guess and check your way through the game instead of intricately and cleaverly exploring the world based on distinct hints and clues just to get the real gameplay.

But he actually knows how to bring up good arguments. Anyways, you wanted examples of text from both games, and you got it. His bias for MM has nothing to do with quotes taken directly from both games.

I much prefer seeing TP tell you where to go than having to aimlessly prance around Termina without any idea whatsoever of where you're going or what you're looking for.

Now you are contradicting yourself. You said that Tatl pretty much tells you exactly where to go, and it is common sense to figure out what to do ("It's not even exploration"), but now you are saying MM has you aimlessly searching without any idea on what to do?

Originally Posted by gliderpilotgirl

It's not a flame war, it's a spirited discussion with remarks that are appropriate to the topic overall. I can't see reason ( at this moment ) to lock it. .

People are getting pretty angry at each other, and the thread has had pretty much nothing to do with what you'd want the difficulty of Zelda Wii to be for 3 pages. It's just been people arguing over which past Zelda games are harder, and whether MM is a good game or not.

Originally Posted by NintendoTogepi

People are getting pretty angry at each other, and the thread has had pretty much nothing to do with what you'd want the difficulty of Zelda Wii to be for 3 pages. It's just been people arguing over which past Zelda games are harder, and whether MM is a good game or not.

What are you talking about?

First off, this is a debate about what difficulty level other zeldas are so as to put the new zelda an expected difficulty rank.

Second, we all agree MM is an amazing game. Not flawless by any means, but great. We are just debating how easy it is.

Third, whose getting angry? Maybe you, but the rest of us are rather happy and enjoy the spirited debates that are so hard to come by without the issue being completely one sided.

Originally Posted by Eldin Arrow

I would like for the new Zelda to be extremely hard. The kind of new Zelda that literally puts your puzzle solving/dungeon exploring skills to the test without having no help....! I would like the game to really make you think, and use your wits to get yourself out of hard situations.

Whole-heartedly agreed.

Oh lawd, I wouldn't want the game to be REALLY HARDKORE HARD ZOMGZ.

Everyone seems to be out for this 'challenge' when you can easily get other games that will satisfy your needs in that respect. For Zelda, it's about the story and having fun - not getting stuck on mega hard puzzles that will inevitable end up in you tossing your Wii out the window in frustration.

I like Zelda because it's accessable, you can sit back and relax whilst your playing it, but the story and music keeps you in suspense for the most part without the game being especially hard. It's enjoyable as it is and I wouldn't want the franchise to change from the current friendly feeling it radiates currently.

---Edit

I'd just like to clarify I'm not for making the game so easy a 3 year old could play it. I'd just the the difficulty setting it already has to remain as it is rather than shifting it to a harder or easier level.

Originally posted by KeeSomething
Exactly. Majora's Mask has no focus on gameplay at all, Mirren.

That 'exploration' before the actual tasks sure as hell isn't.

So you criticise Majora's Mask for something that all Zelda games, and most video games in general, are guilty of? Don't even try to deny your bias against Majora's Mask.

I criticize it because you're forced to go across that one dimensional land, unlike in other games which don't make you travel on it without any idea where you're going. I can tolerate mild environments, but what I can't tolerate is a game slamming this 'exploration' in your face and having you do that across plain areas.

But he actually knows how to bring up good arguments. Anyways, you wanted examples of text from both games, and you got it. His bias for MM has nothing to do with quotes taken directly from both games.

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean that what MM does is good. My most important concern is if it means something, rather than it simply being there.

Now you are contradicting yourself. You said that Tatl pretty much tells you exactly where to go, and it is common sense to figure out what to do ("It's not even exploration"), but now you are saying MM has you aimlessly searching without any idea on what to do?

We were talking about the general realms of Termina at the point, and in that regard she does tell you exactly where to go.

Originally Posted by NintendoTogepi

People are getting pretty angry at each other, and the thread has had pretty much nothing to do with what you'd want the difficulty of Zelda Wii to be for 3 pages. It's just been people arguing over which past Zelda games are harder, and whether MM is a good game or not.

I don't know whose posts you've been reading but this whole discussion has been very rational and interesting. A one sided argument is pretty boring. It might have gotten a little heated at times but that's what happens in any good debate. Also, you can't call this a flame war because there haven't been any negitive comments directed to attack you as a person. Some people may have attacked your opinion on the subject of this thread but that's what happens in threads. Someone offers a point and someone comes up with a counter point. It's as simple as that. And as for all the MM stuff, it's just some examples. The best way to explain a point is give practical examples that show what you mean. In this case they are comparing the difficulty of what they'd like Zelda Wii to the difficulty of MM. If I say that I want Zelda Wii to be medium in difficultly and give no example what does it mean? Nothing. If you don't use examples to show what 'medium' is then it means nothing. What Mirren, Rhalen and other folks have been doing during the thread is establishing what 'easy', 'medium', and 'hard' mean.

The debate seems fine to me. The difficulty level of current games is being discussed, which is what the topic is somewhat about. It helps us define what is very hard or very easy.

I appreciate that fact that I don't see oneliners giving the answer "very easy" or "very hard". I think the way it's going is fine, even if it hasn't developed like NT wants it.

Now MM is one of my three favorite games, so I disagree with Mirren. Tatl tells you to go in one direction or another, but there is enough stuff to do in those particular areas before getting to the dungeon, that it doesn't feel like Tatl is holding my hand.