Voiceacting & Orchestrated music

I was reading through the forums yesterday and read people's complaints about how in some Zelda games characters have personality and some Zelda games dont.. It actually made me laugh because in ALL Zelda games no one really has much of a personality or unique style, Zelda is just full of cliche personalities. In fact Link, the main character, has abso-freaka-lutly no personailty at all. Of coarse I dont play Zelda games for the puzzles and exploring, not character development or personality, but after completing Final Fantasy X again, I see something that Final Fantasy has that Zelda lacks: each chracter has their own, uinque personality and everyone goes through major character development. You really feel for each character in FF10 and I could care less about most of the Zelda characters from any game. Why is this? Well, FF 10 does have a deeper story, but I also think that voiceacting had a lot to do with it AND orchastrated music. Example:

Final Fantatasy Ending scene (its the ending so there will be spoilers, duh )- you most likely dont understand this video since you havent played the whole game but you can tell from the sound of their voices and the dramatic music that something emotional is happening.

Can you imagine how less dramatic that scene would be if instead of hearing their voices, you get a big ugly text box? And instead of the beautiful orchestrated music you get that outdated sounding MIDI music? I think the Zelda series has to evolve a bit since voiceacting and orchestrated music are now standard for video games! AND I know alot of people may feel that voiceactors can never match up to your expectations, but they can. Zelda is a high budget series and Nintendo can afford good dubbing! But I think in order for you to truely feel for a character and for a dramatic cutscene to have more emotion, voice acting and orchestrated are a MUST!!

If you love Final Fantasy so much why don't you hump it? Seriously, Zelda would be different with voice acting, it would be a change. Sometimes changes are good, and sometimes changes are bad. There are like 10 Zelda games, not one of them had voice acting. Also voice acting can't be done on the gamecube on 1 disc.
As for orchestrated music, Final Fantasy X uses .midi files just as hard as Zelda does.

EDIT: After seeing that video, the voice acting is just plain horrible, japanese characters that speak English. Let them just have japanese voices with english subtitles, that would work for me. But not English voices, that's just wrong.

the wii can handle all of that, i think they should make every main character talk execpt for link, and i trust the people of nintendo to do it right

I think it'd be a good idea if only the main characters talked (Zelda, Ganon, the Gods and Godesses, etc) but the NPCs talked in text. Orchastrated music would be great too.

C'mon.

I love Zelda and I like Final Fantasy. Of course, I would not complain if Nintendo made Zelda games a bit deeper in terms of story and characters. But your whole plan is basically taking Zelda and making it a Final Fantasy game, and that's borderline offensive to me.

Originally Posted by WinderWake

In fact Link, the main character, has abso-freaka-lutly no personailty at all.

Frankly, it's obvious that you have no clue about the concept behind Link. Don't you get it?

You don't play as Link. You are Link. Your emotions are his. It's not a Final Fantasy game. He's not Tidus, Cloud, or Squall. He's not a character with a defined personality. Though I have nothing wrong with well-developed protagonists, their speech and personalities make it obvious that you are not them, you're merely controlling them. Characters like Link and Samus are fascinating because they let you envision the character however you want. Remember, Link is named for the link shared between the character and the gamer. His lack of personality is one of his best qualities and one way in which he's such a unique character.

Originally Posted by WinderWake

Can you imagine how less dramatic that scene would be if instead of hearing their voices, you get a big ugly text box?

Although I love Final Fantasy X, it's not as perfect and dreamy as you're making it out to be. For every interesting, emotional scene, there's another that's simply horrible. You give me the tear-filled ending, I'll give you the horrid laughing scene at Luca in return. Voice acting can benefit a game, but it can also be a huge detriment. For example, Super Mario Sunshine would have been a better game if it didn't have voice acting. I don't think you'll find anyone who will tell you that its voice acting made it a better game.

And what's wrong with "big ugly text boxes"? First of all, they're not ugly. Have you seen the text boxes in Twilight Princess? They're very organic looking and fit the atmosphere of the game beautifully.

Originally Posted by WinderWake

I think the Zelda series has to evolve a bit since voiceacting and orchestrated music are now standard for video games! AND I know alot of people may feel that voiceactors can never match up to your expectations, but they can.

No, they're not. The vast majority of games still use plenty of computer generated music and there are a large amount of fantastic games that use little to no voice work. Have you heard of the upcoming game Okami for the PS2? It has no substantial voice work and a ton of text boxes, yet it's one of the most anticipated games of the year.

And as was indicated earlier, Final Fantasy X uses a ton of non-orchestrated music. In fact, the majority of the music is non-orchestrated. Twilight Princess will be the same way. Nintendo has repeatedly said that TP will feature orchestrated music, but it's not going to be exclusively orchestrated music. Just like your darling FFX.

Originally Posted by WinderWake

But I think in order for you to truely feel for a character and for a dramatic cutscene to have more emotion, voice acting and orchestrated are a MUST!!

So does that mean I need to listen to audiobooks rather than reading an actual book in order to get real emotion from it?

And that's where I'll end for now.

Here's what comes to mind when I think of voice-acting in Zelda. Everyone speaks to Link, at Link, around Link...and what does he reply with? Maybe a hand gesture or two. Then the other person responds to what Link was implied to have said. That sounds indescribably awkward to me. For the record, I still say Link should never speak. Standards are too high for our Hylian hero; Nintendo could never measure up.

Originally Posted by buckeyes1186

No, they're not. The vast majority of games still use plenty of computer generated music and there are a large amount of fantastic games that use little to no voice work. Have you heard of the upcoming game Okami for the PS2? It has no substantial voice work and a ton of text boxes, yet it's one of the most anticipated games of the year.

Less relevant note. Okami should be on the Wii, not the PS2. << Logically speaking. Maybe they could port it.

I dunno...voice acting + Zelda...it could do very well, or very badly.

To be honest though, I'm kind of enamored with just the sounds characters make when you speak with them, be it a grunt, a sigh, a giggle, a 'hello,' or whatever. Voice acting would mean those go away, which makes me sad.

Also, Miyamoto's said before that he doesn't want Link to speak. Link has no personality in-game (though I beg to differ about this, see Wind Waker) because we the player are supposed to fill that in. Link is our 'link' to the world of Hyrule - we're supposed to fill his role. He doesn't have a personality? Well then give him one yourself.

I also think you're using the term 'orchestrated' wrong - I think what you mean is 'music recorded by a live orchestra.' MIDI songs can be 'orchestrated,' all the term means is that the instruments playing (or synthesizing) the music are the same ones one would find in a traditional orchestra. So yeah, MIDI orchestra FTW.

I dunno, it seems this day in age that we're always expecting so much - a deep story with deep characters with deep orchestrated music and deep gameplay - feh. It's as deep as you want to make it, honestly.

Nintendo games are not so much about storytelling. You have voice acting and specifically orchestrated scores to aid in storytelling. yes, there is a lot of story in Zelda, but the actual game experience is made for you to fill in the blanks. It's a concept that many people don't understand, usually because they don't have the imagination necessary to fill in the blanks and become attached to a perception of a character rather than what's clearly presented.

High brow, no?

Why do people want Zelda to be a movie? Why don't you just go watch LoTR or something?

Also... why do people want Zelda to be Final Fantasy?

In all honesty, I think that the way characters are portrayed through text in Zelda games is what gives the game its personality. There is just something about the way characters are portrayed that simply could not be done with voice acting. It just has this eerie feel to it, mostly because all the characters seem apathetic and almost humorous in such dire situations. It's really interesting, and it's really cool. Just because Zelda has matured doesn't mean it won't be quirky... and if it loses its quirkiness, it's lost a fan.

If you want Final Fantasy, play Final Fantasy. I play Zelda because it plays like a dream, not because it watches like a movie.

As for music... I agree on many levels. However, Wind Waker had an incredible soundtrack I think (if a little sparse). There were great songs that were very well put together.

And as for silent films versus silent games... that's a pretty shaky analogy. Films are meant to present with a story, while in games stories are played out by the gamer. There's no interactivity in films, so adding voices was great in nearly all cases.

Woah, calm down, I wasn't meaning to attack or insult you or your ideas personally. I just don't agree with you and was expressing why. I'm not using those questions rhetorically... I'm really asking why. I have no idea why people want Zelda to become this huge theatrical production when we're getting incredible games that we love as it is.

One of the biggest problems that would arise from voice acting and such being implented in Zelda would be having to buy several discs. That, and the game would take more time to be finished. Surely you can see how much people are already whining for TP, as little as it has taken for supposedly the greatest game Zelda so far.

I personally would say no to this idea, although I wouldn't consider it a disaster if it ever did happen.

I thought TWW and OoT were quite dramatic (especially TWW) without voice acting, but maybe that's just me.

Tp is fully Orchestrated, it was confirmed at the 05 e3.. As for the Voice Acting....yeah the gamecube can handle it look at Dinosaur planet. However almost every time the acting sucks..again look at Dinosaur Planet.

Well to be honest, I really do believe Nintendo just feeds us a bunch of crap like "Zelda has no voice acting because we want the player to feel all of the emotions" because they are too cheap to add voice actors. We'll see how far they go with the orchestrated music in TP because NO zelda has ever had anything orchestrated in it so this will be interesting. I'm surprised Nintendo is even spending the extra money on some orchestrated pieces in TP.

TP GCN version isn't even in widescreen!?!? I love Nintendo and all, but you gotta at least provide us with widescreen, orchestrated music, OR voice acting. Give us at least one of those. If a multi-billion dollar juggernaut like Nintendo can't even make TP on the GCN widescreen theirs something wrong. This is going to be Nintendos biggest release ever and thats saying a lot...at least give us widescreen...are they that lazy?

Originally Posted by TwilightPrince1

Well to be honest, I really do believe Nintendo just feeds us a bunch of crap like "Zelda has no voice acting because we want the player to feel all of the emotions" because they are too cheap to add voice actors.

Wha..wha...what?

With all due respect, that's a load of crap. Nintendo is not too cheap to add voice actors. They are pouring tons and tons of money into this game and it's obvious. Nintendo has no reason to be frugal in this game's production. With the massive success of the DS, especially in Japan, Nintendo has a ton of cash to throw around. People always act like Nintendo is on the brink of extinction, when in reality, they're far from it.

They don't add voice acting because they don't want to. Simple as that. There is no reason at all to add full voice acting in Zelda. It wouldn't make it any better and could possibly make it worse.

Originally Posted by TwilightPrince1

TP GCN version isn't even in widescreen!?!? I love Nintendo and all, but you gotta at least provide us with widescreen, orchestrated music, OR voice acting. Give us at least one of those. If a multi-billion dollar juggernaut like Nintendo can't even make TP on the GCN widescreen theirs something wrong. This is going to be Nintendos biggest release ever and thats saying a lot...at least give us widescreen...are they that lazy?

Widescreen? That came out of thin air. Not a single person in this thread has said a thing about widescreen.

But since you mention it, there's a simple reason that they're not putting widescreen on the GCN version: they want the Wii version to sell more. 16:9 support is a legitimate reason to choose the Wii version over the Cube version and will help it sell more. It's not because they're cheap or lazy; it's because they're being business savvy.

Voice acting in Zelda would be a bad idea. For the reason, its hard to explain but to put it simply;

The Zelda series pulls of what few can. It makes you imagine the scene, like you are in the scene. When you read the text from a character, you imagine that character speaking in you head, with there own unique voice. The way it often does this in there newer ones is give you a sample of what there voice may sound like. Voice acting would ruin how deep the game is. imho because of this, the Zelda games are much deeper then Final Fantasy and most other games, if not all.

I doubt Game Cube software discs have the capacity to even contain such a game in widescreen. Concerning Nintendo being cheap... they're a multi-billion dollar company, and if they thought that including voice acting would make a better game they'd have no problem with expending a little of their enormous resources.

Originally Posted by Citizen Insane

I doubt Game Cube software discs have the capacity to even contain such a game in widescreen. Concerning Nintendo being cheap... they're a multi-billion dollar company, and if they thought that including voice acting would make a better game they'd have no problem with expending a little of their enormous resources.

You want to know what the problem is? Nintendo does have the resources and Nintendo is top-notch when it comes to developing games with top of the line gameplay mechanics. The problem is that Nintendo is not really experienced in making games with good voice acting, so they tend not to wander in that area. Voice acting can be done right, and it can make a game better. Nintendo is just more well known for making games that play really well and control really well....their not known for the being outstanding presentation wise (voice acting, full orchestra, dolby digital 5.1 surround sound, high definition). Nintendo instead likes to use standard definition, midi file music, dolby pro logic II, and no voice acting.

While I think Nintendo has stepped it up a notch in the graphics department because I am really impressed with the graphical quality in TP, I still think Nintendo can step it up in the overall presentation department. Their gameplay is still unrivaled by any other company on the planet though, and that is what counts the most. Since Nintendo has the gameplay department mastered, I would just like to see them pour some more of their resources into the presentation. If they did this then Nintendo would rule the gaming industry once again.

No-one can argue with an orchestrated soundtrack. It would be awesome, definately a lot better than just some some midi samples and artificial mixing.

Zelda may not be about the story, but it does contain one, and it does contain dialogue, and cutscenes. For this reason, it should contain voice acting. Who can argue with progress? I am not saying Link should or shouldn't have a voice box of his own, that is for another argument, and besides, aside from the occasional nod or head-shake, Link never speaks or communicates, he only gets spoken to. Fact is, the game's use of text boxes for speech is outdated. When I walk through my local supermarket, people talk. As i walk towards and away from them, i can hear individual people having conversations and then hear their voices trailing off. I don't have to read a passage and sort out any ambiguities in the text myself. Why is it in Zelda that in order for a Townsperson to say hello and and direct me on the correct use of the A button i have to stop and read a block of text?

Now as far as all this high production-value talk goes, it should all flow. I hate nothing more than seeing an impressive CGI FMV clip containing voice acting and then jumping into the game myself only to find a poorly animated, text-dependant adventure awaiting. It's very disoreinting and alienating to the experience.

Zelda is all about immersion, feeling as though the game world presented is real. As such, all cutscenes should be ahndled with the in-game engine (as they are at the moment. It's working well) and If voice work is to be included, it should be included for every spoken line, no matter how trivial. Once again, Link has never uttered a word anyway, so there's no problem there.

I can understand Nintendo's reluctance to use voice acting, and it has nothing to do with "the spirit of the game" or "the imagination of the player". It's hard to find good voice work for starters. A lot of it is crap, not to say it shouldnt be done. Second, it means more money and productio ntime, which means more money.

Originally Posted by HarmanStalefish

No-one can argue with an orchestrated soundtrack. It would be awesome, definately a lot better than just some some midi samples and artificial mixing.

Zelda may not be about the story, but it does contain one, and it does contain dialogue, and cutscenes. For this reason, it should contain voice acting. Who can argue with progress? I am not saying Link should or shouldn't have a voice box of his own, that is for another argument, and besides, aside from the occasional nod or head-shake, Link never speaks or communicates, he only gets spoken to. Fact is, the game's use of text boxes for speech is outdated. When I walk through my local supermarket, people talk. As i walk towards and away from them, i can hear individual people having conversations and then hear their voices trailing off. I don't have to read a passage and sort out any ambiguities in the text myself. Why is it in Zelda that in order for a Townsperson to say hello and and direct me on the correct use of the A button i have to stop and read a block of text?

Now as far as all this high production-value talk goes, it should all flow. I hate nothing more than seeing an impressive CGI FMV clip containing voice acting and then jumping into the game myself only to find a poorly animated, text-dependant adventure awaiting. It's very disoreinting and alienating to the experience.

Zelda is all about immersion, feeling as though the game world presented is real. As such, all cutscenes should be ahndled with the in-game engine (as they are at the moment. It's working well) and If voice work is to be included, it should be included for every spoken line, no matter how trivial. Once again, Link has never uttered a word anyway, so there's no problem there.

I can understand Nintendo's reluctance to use voice acting, and it has nothing to do with "the spirit of the game" or "the imagination of the player". It's hard to find good voice work for starters. A lot of it is crap, not to say it shouldnt be done. Second, it means more money and productio ntime, which means more money.

Great post and I definately agree with you that the reason Nintendo doesn't use voice acting isn't because they want to leave it to "the imagination of the player". Like you said, first of all it's hard to find good voice actors and also because it means more money, which means more production time. Zelda games are always long in production anyways (especially TP) so adding voice actors would lengethen production time even more.

Sometimes I can't even with the hardest effort understand other people's opinion! If voice-acting is done well, why would it be a problem? It's not even a question for me, it's a fact? Who wouldn't want Voice Acting. It's like asking somebody to take your money? It's ob-vi-ous.

But there are way more people who don't think this way, and refuse voice acting. And the only and main-reason is the imagination crap. I'm not gonna talk about this for 5 pages (trough it really could), cause I know Im not gonna convince you. But it doesn't make sense at all to me. That people don't like or even hate Zelda is fine with me, that's their opinion. And if you look trough different eyes, it's quit boring to just walk and walk trough to hard dungeons for hours. But to choose no voice acting above voice acting is just redicilous. I know for sure, a big part (not all - A big part) are just copying somebody else's opinion. But there are really are people who think it. The only reasons why I wouldn't want Voice acting are..

1) If it's done bad, not long story to explain that. Rather no voice acting then bad Voice acting.

2) Something they would rather do because of the ****-load of text in a Zelda Game: Voice acting for the halve. I think this would be even worser then point one. In many games the great plot scenes and everything is voice-acter, but if you talk to a NPC it's not. I want everything voice acted, or nothing. Not between it. Because of the voice acted scenes, it makes the NPC conversations look cheap.

So if those points are not applied, I would surely vote yes. Now I have one question for the ones with the "no voice-acting opinion". If everything is worked out well. The Voice Actors are great, everything is voice acted, and it's not like other game parts have so soffer from the time they pulled in the voice acting. Would you then still vote no?? You would still want no voice acting?