A fight you can't win

I have seen this done in many good games including paper mario, pheonix wright and if you count insanity effects, eternal darkness. The point is that there is a boss or fight in the game that you can't actually beat (in your present state) and the only thing that you can do is have your character die/lose. Instead of going to the game over screen you are taken to some sort of plot advancement (like it was all a dream but you still have the item you found there... )or the final blow that you would have took makes the scene go into slow motion where you may be saved by a non player character of significance, have some sort of flashback, or even better... hit out of the arena by the force of the attack to a place that you wouldn't have been able to reach before. Later on you should be able to return and win the fight in order to collect the item, further the plot, get to a new area etc.

Give your opinions on my idea, suggest such 'twists' of your own or go on and on about how i'm full of ... mass.

I always enjoyed those unexpected plot twists and i think that you're idea is a good one. The only thing is, with a game like Zelda that's not a level-based RPG, what would prevent a really good player from beating the enemy and still make the battle fun? What I mean is, the only way I can think to garuntee (sp?) a loss is to not have a required item. But that might make the whole battle kinda boring. How would you make it interesting and still impossible?

good question, you could have a damage field around the boss like in Majoras Mask (the place where sharp has his haunted pool that hurts you while you are there until you play the song of storms to clear it), you could have it so that he counters all of your attacks with his own that do damage, for example, if you use a vertical slash he rolls out of the way and uses a sword sweep to damage you, if you throw a bomb he throws it back, etc. It would be cool just watching the fightor maybe the game will trick you into thinking that you are damaging him but when you think you are about to deliver the final blow he counters in some way. There are many ways to do it but the battle shouldn't be drawn out. Think of it as trying to defeat ganon with the big goron sword, you can hit him to a picometer of his life but he will NEVER die until you use the master sword.

I dislike unbeatable fights. First off, you waste items on them, since they tend to be similar to normal fights you find yourself wasting that uber boss-slaying ring of ultimate pwn with only one use (or whatever) on the unbeatable boss. (In the Case of Zelda games this isn't quite so bad, although you may have to go out of your way to find more arrows/magic.)

Secondly, it re-enforces the idea that your character can't lose. Sure, I know, it's a foregone conclusions that you'll win in the end, but being showered with too many deus ex machinas can really destroy one's suspension of disbelief. (Especially in a Zelda game where you are essentially the lone hero, in RPGs they're usually used to introduce new helpers, but that will never be an issue in a Zelda game.)

Finally, the exact same thing can be accomplished by a cutscene, which tend to look cooler and inspire far more emotion anyways. Now, if you wanted to have a cutscene of Link losing to a boss then I could possibly see that working, if done correctly.

I would like a few fights with Ganondorf throught the game where you still coundn't beat him until the end.

I'd rather have one of those reoccuring fights where your enemy flees to lick his wounds and you encounter him later when he has ways to counter the attacks you used on him last time. It would be nice for people just getting used to an item for the reoccuring boss to appear and you have to defeat him with your new item.

Helps to familiarize you with your arsenal of weapons

I would prefer a fight where the boss wasn't using it's full strength to fight at first, but unleashes it's full fury right before you beat it. Instead of not having the required item, you would lack the right amount of health. I guess a good example would be fighting an iron knuckle from OoT that takes four hearts with each hit, but you only have three or four at the time.

Me and my friend wasted so much items and all our money on defeating the angel guy the first time you fight him in Tales of Symphonia for the GCN. You were supposed to let him kill you, but we never knew. So much wasted.

No.

Originally Posted by Moonlight

Me and my friend wasted so much items and all our money on defeating the angel guy the first time you fight him in Tales of Symphonia for the GCN. You were supposed to let him kill you, but we never knew. So much wasted.

No.

That's why you have the reset button, and smart people save on two files to help fix mistakes.

Ah, but lazy people don't.

Originally Posted by Daphnes

That's why you have the reset button, and smart people save on two files to help fix mistakes.

But why have unbeatable fights, anyways? What purpose do they serve? Even if they do serve a purpose they can be done, without the need to reset or have rotating saves, by using a cutscene.

I suppose a cutscene would be best, especiaslly a skippable cutscene when you've seen it a dozen times.

Unbeatable fights are more or less playable movie scenes, just there as a segway, or to further the story along, or an M. Knight shyamalan twist.

I think they are good overall however, it really just depends on how the game goes about it. MGS 3 and Megaman X had brilliant unbeatable bosses, introducing new characters and changing the main characters whole preception of reality.

If link were to have such a fight, I would much rather it introduce a character, say, warrior zelda, or the new mystery character rather than change link's entire veiw of the world.. eh, maybe if the unbeatable fight somehow realize that he is infact a hero..no, just stick with introducing a new character.

But the fight would have to be very engaging however, so that in later playthroughs the player wouldn't just sit there and let link die, the player would have to preform certain actions to cue the end fight movie scene.

Originally Posted by vacumgod

Unbeatable fights are more or less playable movie scenes, just there as a segway, or to further the story along, or an M. Knight shyamalan twist.

I think they are good overall however, it really just depends on how the game goes about it. MGS 3 and Megaman X had brilliant unbeatable bosses, introducing new characters and changing the main characters whole preception of reality.

If link were to have such a fight, I would much rather it introduce a character, say, warrior zelda, or the new mystery character rather than change link's entire veiw of the world.. eh, maybe if the unbeatable fight somehow realize that he is infact a hero..no, just stick with introducing a new character.

But the fight would have to be very engaging however, so that in later playthroughs the player wouldn't just sit there and let link die, the player would have to preform certain actions to cue the end fight movie scene.

Yes, that would work nicely. Most of these unbeatable fights are boring, which is why I recommended cutscenes. But if the fight is fun (ie, you get them down to their 'last form' which then just owns you.) then it works well.

i think that an unbeatable fight with minda would be cool if only it happens

beware the deku scrub

Originally Posted by GDwarf

Finally, the exact same thing can be accomplished by a cutscene, which tend to look cooler and inspire far more emotion anyways. Now, if you wanted to have a cutscene of Link losing to a boss then I could possibly see that working, if done correctly.

That pretty much happened in TWW, with Ganondorf at the Forsaken Fortress.

I think it'd be interesting to have an unbeatable boss that you actually get to fight, if it's done well. There probably would need to be some objective at least so that you don't just sit there and let him kill you. I think it would work if you had to survive for a certain amount of time against an unstoppable foe, and then something would interrupt the battle. It would have to be better than the "fight" with General Scales in Star Fox Adventures, though.

The point of a game isn't to win but to have fun and having fun is ultimately what matters. This shouldn't be a frustrating fight but an entertaining one, it could even be comical in some ways but the important thing is that you enjoy doing it and don't want to just skip through it (unless you are TSA doing a speed run). This is however more fun then a fight you can't lose. Think back to the time you fought Ganondorf as link in the wind waker, do you recall how the shield could defend against every single one of ganondorfs attacks except his kick which took off a quarter heart and if you had full guauge, soup and 3 blue potions along with the invincibilty spell then dying becomes almost completely impossible. Such fights really aren't all that great because there is no challenge, just tapping b to win. There is no such thing as wasting items in zelda, this isn't an rpg. Rupees grow on trees and the minish hide bombs and arrows under every blade of grass while the new red orbs can pretty much fill you full of everything. The game can even reward you with a cooler cutscene depending on how long you last in the fight (not altering the plot of course). For example if you just stand around and let yourself die the scene blacks out (or whites out) and you can barely hear what happens next and you end up in a new place. If however you tried to beat him and you hit him to within an inch of it's life then you get to see the whole scene clearly and maybe even something new for effect.

wait is that like the first battle in TP, n e way that would be awesome, i love a good chalenge, also it would be good if you didnt save after you did it, in case you wanted to try again

Originally Posted by greenboy94

wait is that like the first battle in TP, n e way that would be awesome, i love a good chalenge, also it would be good if you didnt save after you did it, in case you wanted to try again

You'd want to play through an unwinable fight multiple times?