Item and weapon discussion. And sword techniques in a 3D setting.

Okay, does anybody else feel that the series has gotten pretty stale when it comes to new items? I mean this is the one area where I can see a lot of improvement in the series, and thus a lot of new gameplay. So here are a few ideas I've had, feel free to contribute your own and comment on any of them.

First: I think if they're going to make a Zelda game based heavily in combat, it should be TOUGH, and have it equal one full heart of damage for most attacks, which would lead to my first points:

Armor and Shields.
I tend to think Link should be able to walk into a blacksmith's shop and be able to buy temporary armor in addition to different shield types. Now, by temporary armor, I mean a simple vest or breast plate that can take so many hearts of damage for Link before it becomes useless. These hearts are represented on your life bar as shields over your hearts, and thus can artificially increase your life for tough situations. However, the big downside for these would be the cost of the armor. It could be 900 rupees for the plate that adds seven shields, 1500 for the regal armor that adds ten. This also serves another purpose: it's a natural rupee eater. I always felt that there was never enough to buy in Zelda games as for the last 3 dungeons you usually walk around with 999 or whatever the maximum number is. I appreciated Wind Waker raising the rupee limit, but only that rediculously expensive Tingle stuff was all you were really buying. If you can carry alot, I say you should be able to spend a lot.

As for shields, I think they should be destructable until you get to the last two, but the last one should be exceptionally difficult to get. Basically the system I have set up is based on "cracks" put into the shields. Any particularly strong hit (something that would normally do 2-3 hearts of damage) that the shield takes instead of hitting Link, would put 1 crack into the shield. And I have a set up that's pretty balanced I think:
Wooden Shield (circular shape)- 3 cracks, fire destroys, cost of 75 rupees.
Hylian shield (squarish shape)- 6 cracks, cost of 150 rupees.
Royal Shield (Oot's Hylian shield shape)- 9 cracks, cost of 300 rupees.
Mirror shield - 3 cracks disrupt reflection ability, cost of 500 rupees to repair.
Enchanted Shield- Indestructable though a particularly strong hit (5 hearts of damage) will knock it out of your hands.

Oh, and of course shields can be eaten like normal, or perhaps even stolen by thieves or muggers. However, when eaten, every 5 seconds of digestion, puts one crack into the shield, so there is still plenty of reason to kill the creature quickly.

That's it for this post, but I'll toss in some others that put out some more ideas.

I like the armor idea but would you really want to have to worry about your shield breaking in the middle of the dungeon?

One of the reasons I immediately bought the Minish Cap, was that they finally included something I've wanted in a Zelda game for quite a while:

Different Sword Techniques!

However there really weren't too many new ones unfortunately. The Peril beam was interesting, and the the roll lunge was nice, plus it was nice to see them put in Link's downward thrust into a top-down Zelda game, but really not much was too new.

But that doesn't mean the idea should be abandoned, but rather, expanded I say!

First, I tend to think it should be based on a charging system. Basically we're all used to Link charging up for a Spin attack, so keep that the same. However, I think that once you've reached a full charge, you can input different directions and perhaps buttons to unleash different attacks.

For example, a full charge and then moving the controller stick in a circular motion before releasing would unleash a normal spin attack.

However pushing the stick torward an opponent and then pulling the stick back (towards the player) could result in Link running towards the enemy, initiate a jumping uppercut slash, and then a kick so he lands back in his start position. This would be a great attack for flying or otherwise tall enemies. And perhaps it could be comboed into a downward sword thrust eventually.

Double tapping the stick forward could start a pegasus dash, while not touching any direction could unleash a sword beam. Pushing it forward and then to the right or left, could result in a charge fake-out, which would leave the enemy open from a flanking position on slower enemies. And pulling back and then pushing forward would result in Link pulling off a "thousand thrust" strike, which would look similar to Link's Super Smash Bros Melee attack where you tap A repeatedly.

And those are the most basic ideas for charged attacks, although I should add that I think for some, the charge shouldn't be longer than a second or two (like the uppercut slash and the pegasus dash) while for others (like the spin attack) a full charge of usually 5 to 7 seconds would be needed.

Also, I think parrying was a good idea that could become greatly improved upon. But it should work very differently. First it should stay available only if your locked onto an enemy and aren't holding out your shield to block. It should also be only if your moving toward or away from the enemy, but not circling him. Circling leads more naturally into a jumping dodge, and should remain that way. Also the flashing button should apply to both the A and B buttons. It should be this way because it would normally alternate between the two randomly to make sure the player is paying attention (keeping it on one button makes it too easy, randomizing it makes it a master technique that's tougher to pull off).

Also, parrying shouldn't be a natural super attack, but rather simply a defensive maneuver that opens the enemy up for a more vicious attack. And I could see quicker enemies who could react and thus need multiple parries before they'd be wide open for a strong blow. Once the enemy has been successfully parried, then they'd basically be delayed for some reason (some might be dizzied some might have to yank their weapon out of the ground after you parry it) you should be able to initiate an appropriate finisher, but it would take specific button presses or directions on the control stick.

Also, parrying could be used in situations where you're surrounded by enemies to deflect attacks from flanking enemies.

Of course, all of these moves could make the game too easy if the enemies weren't particularly tough, which I think they should be. And many should have individual strategies that would defeat certain move. For example, any enmy with a spear could defeat a pegasus charge by readying his spear against it. And I'd like to see enemies react to Link if he pulls out diferent weapons. I noticed that in all the 3D games practically, you can defeat almost all enemies if you just hang back and shoot arrows at them. Well, why don't enemies take a defensive position then trying to either dodge or block your arrows depending on their abilities?

I'll toss in some more ideas in the next post concerning fighting styles.

To Dodo:

Actually I don't think it would be too much of an issue because it's really based on player performance. Shields don't get cracks from projectile attacks (unless perhaps it's a boss character) and normally in Zelda games they make you practically invincible.

I mean seriously, in most fights, as long as you hold your shield out, you cannot be hurt! That's rediculous! Sure there's the occasional like-like or pumpkin monster that'll eat it, or lava pit that will burn it away, but you almost always have the ability to become invincible. That alone makes the game far too easy.

What I'm saying, from a design perspective anyways, is that the player should get some cost for this invincibility. If you are a serious shield user (and thus hiding from most attacks) your going to be spending more money on replacing shields. It's a trade-off.

Also since most enemies don't pull off really tough attacks until later in the game, your probably not going to have to replace shields all that often. Maybe once after each dungeon (or of course you could simply repair your current shield at a cost of 30 rupees per crack) would be enough.

And also, it gives you a sort of standard cost associated with adventuring, which makes it more interesting. I mean, let's say you want to get ready for that fire dungeon, well you could use some new armor, and fix your shield, but you also might want to stock up on potions or arrows or something. It gives you, the player more to consider, and is better at immersing you into the game without becoming rediculously complicated (I mean you could always go around slaying monsters on the overworld until you got enough dough to get all that you wanted).

Oh and yeah, occasionally it would leave you shield-less in a dungeon, but as long as you make sure no boss has a shield centric strategy you wouldn't run into any true gameplay issues, but rather more player choice. I mean you simply should just learn when to block and when to dodge is all.

Wow that would be really cool I coul definetly see link doing those moves. Ireally like the armor based system. the only thing I think shouldn't be is the taking 5-7 seconds to power up for certain moves, I think that is too long. But I really think that Idea is great.

I think the New Zelda game Should be really realistic and have more sword attacks like in the Minish Cap.

This is an idea I'm not entirely sure about, but it has promise I think.

Remember the equipment screen from OoT? I always felt that that screen should have been divided into 2. One where you choose boots, tunics, shields and gloves and another that is divided solely into main weapon selection. Here you'd select which weapon Link would use, and thus which style.

Basically I figured Link could have 3 styles. There's his standard sword and shield style that we're all familiar with and you would use different swords for as you progressed through the game.

Then there would be two weapon fighting style that would generally consist of smaller blades. You couldn't use a shield with this style, but you could cross both blades to deflect standard blows. Normally the attacks would do less damage than a standard sword blow, but you could attack at a faster rate to make up for it. These would start as a pair of long daggers and you could upgrade to Zoran fin blades and eventually Gerudo swords.

Then there would be the opposite style of a single two-handed weapon. In this style, Link would focus purely on dealing damage. Once again no shield use, and you wouldn't be able to swing your sword nearly as fast, but you'd make up for it with the damage you'd do. We've already seen this style to a degree with the Biggoron's Knife and the great Fairy sword and even the Oni Link blade.

Of course this is just an idea. Next I'll put down some thoughts on equipment and such. Post comments and ideas of your own!

Couple new sword things I'd like to see:

1: A revised pary attack: Ok, I liked pary attack in WW; thought it was nifty. But this wouldn't work with the graphics style for the new one I don't think. Therefore, I'd like to see a variety of pary attacks where Link would do neat stuff like block his enemy's attack and do some sort of turn around and stab from behind thing. Or force his enemy's sword to the ground and smack him in the face with a nice side swipe from his sheild. Sorta like the bane attacks in the Lord of the Rings games if you've ever played those.

2: Link should do some blocking with his sword. In OoT when you used the Biggoron sword you couldn't take out your shield and when you tried to block he'd go into this what I thought was and awesome defensive stance... until I found out that it couldn't block a flipin' twig! Anyway, to the point Link should do some blocking with his sword but only in hand to hand combat; no unrealistic blocking arrows and projectiles with a sword as seen in some games.

-Albert

I only want the game to be hard(or to have at least a hard difficulty that makes you sweat), i hate most easy games
the shield and armor things are nice, but I think it needs more endurance on the cracks
more magic would be neat

Alright, like some other people, I'd love to see the return of the Staffs/canes/rods. But One thing I think would work is a the following: an upgradeable Cane that has different abilities.

For example, let's say you get this cane, and it has a really basic ability, like it shoots out a bolt of energy that flips things, thus it has the functionality of the Cane of Pacci. Well your adventuring, and you find a piece that adds onto the cane, which allows you to strike the ground in front of you which raises a block out of the ground, and thus it also has the ability of the Cane of Byrna. A new head piece would give the cane the ability to have these same bolts surrond and circle link, deflecting attacks by turning them back at enemies. And so forth.

Also I think it would be interesting to use rods in different ways. For example, let's take the fire and ice rods. Well you could carry one in each hand and have one form a dagger made of ice and the other form a blade of fire, and thus, they become a new weapon.

Or perhaps you could connect them at their hilts to form a new staff that controls water levels. Or you could create water tentacles with it like the Morpha boss. You could even mix and match these abilities, like creating a water tentacle to act as a bridge and then freeze it to cross it.

I've got some other ideas for equipment, but I gotta go for now

The shield cracking idea is good. Rather than giving it cracks, I would just give it a set number of hits (Like the Giant's Knife or Razor sword). The number would be quite large to prevent replacing your sheild from becomming annoying. The nature of the game would require you to use your shield a lot. In Wind Waker for example, using your shield was almost never useful. And I also agree about more damage per hit. That is the simplest and most effective way to increase difficulty. The key is keeping the damage consistent with the number of hearts you have. By the mid point of the game, the developers should assume you've collected a few hearts and throw more advanced enemies and traps at you.

Armor is a fine idea, but I would dislike the system you proposed. I mean, getting hit and not taking damage? Personally, I could buy a piece of armor and keep it for most of the game, because when I'm not goofing around I seldom get hit. I think you could buy a piece of armor that would last for maybe 15 hits and cut damage in half. Unless the next game is vastly different than its predecessors, that would last longer than you think.



I am a bit skeptical about sword techniques in a 3D game. I do not want to have to charge up my moves.

The shield cracking idea is a really good one! I'd love to see that in a Zelda game. Also, the armor is a good idea - provided it didn't make you invincible - like Shiek 84 said - but cut the damage in half or something, depending on what variety of armor it was.

The sword tactics would work too, although I'm not sure that the downward stab (as seen in MC and FS) would work though, seeing as what the game looks like so far. I'd even be sceptical about the Pegasus Boots, since it would be kinda wierd to see Link all of a sudden sprinting really fast at an enemy. It worked in the 2D Zeldas, I'm not sure about the 3D ones. Even the Bunny Hood from MM still bugs me...

While we're on that note of upgrading Link's abilities, why not upgrade the horse? I mean, we all saw Link riding around looking totally awesome and chopping moblins and bokoboblins (sp?) in the trailer. Why not stop by a blacksmith and (while you're getting some new armor), have him get new shoes for your steed? It could be like the claim check in OoT where you had to wait a certain amount of time before it was ready. I think that could be cool. It would be expensive though...

Shield cracking - horrible idea. You said the shield makes you invincible, but it doesn't. You can still be hit from behind. I hardly use my shield anyway, except to bounce those flaming skulls off so I can kill them, or when I need it (like for a Deku Scrub or reflecting light). I seriously doubt nintendo would put a shield that breaks in there. It would be awful. I'd like to save my rupees for something more useful than fixing a shield that breaks every few minutes.

Sword moves - I'd like to see more moves, but not have to charge up. All that button pressing/control stick circling sounds tedious.

Armor - This is a good idea. In previous games, you get some tunic that protects you from damage (like in LttP). What the hey? A CLOTH tunic! Upgradable armor sounds good. I think it should cut damage in half and last forever.

Canes - That's a good idea as well, but you mixed up the can of Byrna and Somaria. Somaria creates blocks, Byrna protects you.

Rods - That sounds a little confusing, but an ice/fire rod would be cool. Perhaps you could make a block of ice and then melt it with the fire, making some water, and that could make something happen. I dunno, lol.

Some good ideas, some bad. I do think some of your ideas sound a little non-Zelda-ish, however.

I think that my ideas are pretty zelda-ish.

The thing is I'm just imagining small things that slightly twist the formula. I mean, I'm not saying Link should have a laser sword with guns that shoot other laser swords or anything (a cookie for those who know where that's from), just some armor and sword moves.

As for the way the pegasus dash would work, I tend to think that it works fine if you imagine Link's pose differently. Him running with the sword in front of him is silly, but him carrying it behind him and ending the charge with a vicious slash or something would work.

I do think waiting a long time for a sword to charge is a little silly, and it probably shouldn't be longer than 3 maybe 4 seconds total.

As for the complicatedness of the sword attacks, well these are advanced moves, most being purely optional I'd think. And besides it's not THAT complicated. I mean we already hold down the sword button to do a spin attack. Now just add in tapping the directional button twice(not once because if you want to move while charging just press that direction and hold it like normal). Jeez, not really hard.

And I had what is an interesting idea I think for a new Zelda game.

1st let me say this, I bored of the hookshoot. Personally I think it's been overused because it's cool. I mean I think it's neat, but perhaps a little redundant if you realize that you can already grab items with the boomerang (and stun them with it too) and now that they have the grappling hook, which I tend to think could be greatly expanded (a few examples: tieing it to a rock and rappelling down a cliff face, using it to wrap around an enemies legs and trip them, using it like an actual grappling hook etc) is more fun anyway, because swinging is generally more fun than being pulled.

However there is still a place for an object that pulls you from one point to another, because there isn't always going to be some conviently placed beam or rafter to latch onto.

And then there's something that many other games are doing now, which I think could fit in the Zelda universe. Gravity manipulation and moving small objects while using realistic physics. It's really useful for puzzle solving and has a truly limitless use in any 3D environment. Plus it's just alot of fun to mess around with (and my favorite part of Psi-Ops and a lot of fun in Half-Life 2). Up until now, gravity manipulation tends to stay within science fiction, but I think it'd work fine in a fantasy environment.

So I present you with the Grave Gauntlet!

This is a stone glove or gauntlet that Link would wear (or maybe even a pair of Gauntlets) over his hand. It has etchings and markings and a big, dark gem in the palm. It's also quite large, looking to be about the size of a Goron hand in comparison. And it gives Link some magical control over gravity. In terms of gameplay it would have 3 main uses:

1) To pull Link to distant objects/hookshot replacement.
Basically the idea is that the gauntlet creates a gravitational pull on an object that only effects the object and the gauntlet (and whoever is wearing the gauntlet at the time). Now, on objects that aren't that big, this would mean Link could draw them towards himself and move them around, but on more massive objects, it would draw him towards it. Like the earth draws meteorites.

This could easily replace the hookshot in function, and even look cooler, as you could have a cool gravity distortion effect around Link.

2) To manipulate objects in Link's environment.
Like I said before, the gauntlet creates a pull, so this could be useful in puzzle solving and lead to interesting elements in battle. Like if there was an object that you couldn't reach from far away and you needed it, you could simply pull it towards you. Or a small enemy could be yanked towards you and then thrown into others when you reverse the effect by letting go of the button. The possibilities are really endless.

3) Unique puzzle solving
I think an interesting idea would be that there could be certain entire rooms in a dungeon that you can manipulate in a dungeon with the gauntlet. In these rooms, Link pounds the ground with the stone hand and the room's gravity flips and all of the lighter objects (along with Link) get pulled to the ceiling and you have to deal with the new perspective.

This could lead to some rather intriguing dungeon design and puzzle stuff. Like what if, to solve a puzzle, you had to look at a huge picture or map that was engraved on the floor of a large room. However, that room is littered with statues and other objects that obscure your view, and besides the angles not good to get the look you need. Well, just pound the ground and your now on the ceiling along with all the loose rubble in the room and you have a perfect view of what you needed to see. Just look above you at the floor!

This does lend to an alteration that perhaps the gauntlet can only manipulate certain types of stone, and that a room would have to be carved out of this stone and so would whatever you pulled/were pulled toward. That would limit it's use so you couldn't become all powerful with it.

I made a decent sketch of Link with this Gauntlet, but I don't have a scanner so I can't put it online, but I think it looks pretty good, and would work well within the series.

Anyway post thoughts, comments, and ideas like before.

Ok.. i think the sheild cracking thing is not a good idea sooner or later it would be anoying and why spend that much money on fixing the shield when you can buy other things instead.


The sword techniques is a good idea, but the chargeing thing is to much, it should be 3 - 4 sec tops. And that you could have diffrent fighting styles with diffrent swords
or wepons is a realy good idea.

OH!! and the gravity gountles idea is HORRIBLE that would ruin every thing
i realy think we should stick to the Hook shot.
i realy didn't like that idea. that is SO non-Zelda-ish

^sounds like the magnetic gloves from OOS and the stone tower from MM. I think it's an ok idea, but I'm not so sure about huge stone gauntlets.

Huh, I didn't play the Oracle games (in fact the only Zelda games I haven't played) so I didn't know about the magnetic gloves. Did they work well? Damn now I'll have to go out and buy it.

As for non Zelda-ish, I don't think the gauntlets would be not very Zelda-ish. They're magical, they control an element that occurs in nature, an element, I might add that hasn't really been explored before in a Zelda game (with the exception of the stone tower in MM I guess). If I called them the Gauntlets of the Winds and you could create winds that blew you in a direction and little tornadoes to pick up objects and enemies, and the effect would still be the same, it would just be over something more acceptably "Zelda-ish", and you couldn't have the room altering abilities, which could be cool for puzzle solving.

And besides, what's really Zelda-ish? I didn't think having a camera was very Zelda-ish, and then it appeared in Majora's Mask and wind Waker. Hell, it was part of a HUGE sidequest in WW. I didn't think canned food, crane games or jukeboxes were Zelda-ish, but they've all been in games before.

So what's Zelda-ish? Well I tend to think it's generally something that adds an element of fun and/or control in a Zelda game. Something useful for exploration, and adds the element of it's just fun to tool arround with.

Now, I'd like to bring up some new things that could show up in bottles.

Personally I love getting bottles in a Zelda games, mainly because you could theoretically put any number of things inside and use them later. I enjoy capturing small living things, and I tend to think they dhould bring back the ability to capture bees and use them as a distraction for enemies.

But I also think it might be cool to capture little frogs or mice like creatures. Perhaps the frogs could be used to lure out larger foes (I love the idea of an enemy who would be invincible if it doesn't move, and only moves when it tries to go for food, and thus you'd have to place bait somewhere to get it to becom vulnerable). Or perhaps the fuzzy creatures who could smell out hidden paths through invisible walls or something.

I also tend to think Link should always have more options when it comes to liquids he could carry.
How about some Coffee from a cafe. When Link drinks it he moves extra fast for a period of time. Kind of like a drinkable Bunny Hood.
And if they don't bring back something like the Magic cape. How about an invisibility potion? It wouldn't last very long, but it could be a two helping potion to make up for that.
And what about something more daring for Nintendo? Like some sort of Ale that made Link more resistant to damage, but made his actions slow and wobbly, something just to mess around with.

And waht about powders? In MM there was one point where you got Gold dust in a bottle. Well maybe they can do something with other powders. Like a highly explosive black powder that the Goron's sell. It could be used to remove large rocks and obstacles like those keg-bombs in MM.
And maybe it could be a unique way to bring back magic powder. Like you find some mushrooms in a forest, put 'em in your bottle to preserve them and then find a the witch to turn it into magic powder. It could have multiple uses, like 5 or 10 or something, but it'd be a way to bring back a pretty cool item from LttP.

And what about Poe catching? I always thought this was one of the coolest parts of OoT, especially since you could drink the Poes and they'd do all sorts of crazy crap. That was cool and could be eplored further. I mean what if you drank a poe and it made you hallucinate and see hordes of enemies attacking you? Or made it seem like you were shrinking? Or brought on a cursed status? That was a really imaginative idea and they should bring it back.

Eventually yeah the shield cracking might get to be a bother, but that would make you yearn to get the indestructable shields even more, and make them a greater reward. I figure, using the 3rd level shield most of the time would be fine, you'd only have to replace it once or twice, but it would always keep the player mindful of his equipment and when he should or shouldn't use it.

And as for cost. Well honestly, I tend to think that Money is WAY too easy to come by in most Zelda games. I mean you're usually ending up with a huge supply of rupees you'll never spend, and that's no fun. I mean usually you end up not caring if enemies drop rupees upon death. however, if you had to save up for expensive items that benefited you greatly and ones that you couldn't get for free, well then the rupee becomes important again. There should be as many things as possible to spend rupees on, so that it seems like there's a real economy of the world.

You can drink Poes? Crap, I never tried that. Okay, back on topic. I liked the various ideas about the bottles. I believe the exploding powder you mentioned is called gunpowder. Yeah, happy to help. Anyway, how about certain other uses for your bottled items, like... *thinks* I got one! Catch a Poe, release it near an enemy, and it possesses them and they fight alongside you! That'll be awesome! Of course, the effects would have to be temporary. We can't have people running round with an army of possessed Moblins behind them, can we?

Well thanks Master of Chaos. I know that, but I was trying to keep it "zelda-ish" and since there are no guns in Zelda, it wouldn't be gunpowder, but rather, black powder *wink*.

but thanks.

Always happy to help. And as you said, what's 'Zelda-ish'? You wouldn;'t have thought laser beams and giant mechanical bulls would be Zelda-ish, but they are. (Beamos and Goht)

The shield thing would be bad for players. You could loose the shield and have no money, so you'd have to go around killing monsters for like 2 hours,and then come back loose it again...