Why do we want darker Zelda games?

Baton of the Wind alludes toward an interesting point:

I just don't want that to happen again, lest the Zelda series becomes as uniform as the majority of video games now.

The danger of going too dark, aside from potentially alienating a particular audience, is to lose what makes the series unique. There is a broad move toward homogeneity in gaming today, with most games striving to appeal to a very specific sort of taste. This is most logical outcome when developers take into consideration only the desires of the hardest of the core (those who frequent online message boards or are inclined to provide feedback). Those desires are not necessarily representative of the general public.

Nintendo is often criticized because they don't pander exclusively to this subset of gamers. However, it has proven to be a smart business decision, and one that keeps their games from falling into homogeneity trap. Nintendo games stand out for better or for worse.

I wouldn't have a problem with a darker zelda game as long as there is a point to have it be darker. (one of the biggest problems I have with TP)

Like most people, I loved Majoras Mask and I would love to see the reactions of the townsfolk's and the struggles they have to face while dealing with a really nasty situation (impending doom, conquerors, etc)

I guess what I want is a sense of balance in which I mean that I don't want the Zelda series to get way to dark just for the sake of being dark. I think I'm with most people when I say that a "Disney Dark" would be really cool.

(Also am I the only one that sees SS as being kind of dark, I mean Demise pretty much declares that he will always haunt the descendants of Link and Zelda and the game kind of gives off that dark feeling when its hinted that a war will soon follow afterward. Plus we kind of get to see Zelda soul being stripped from her body and we see Impa dying and then Fi pretty much destroys her conscience in order to destroy Demise. Thats kind of dark if you ask me)

Originally Posted by The Baton of the Wind

I went ahead to overlook the way you started this post, since you you're in no position to tell others how and how not you think words should be used. Fashion works that way, people can create their own definition for those kinds of words since they themselves have been misused and abbreviated all to hell!

Derp, sorry if I offended you but I felt that the way you sounded in your previous comment was just unneeded. How you're acting now is what I perceive to be a little more appropriate, but hey, who the hell cares anymore.
Those words have been bashed beyond death, but still, I wouldn't be surprised if the word was classified as extinct; I haven't heard them in ages until now. Just to have them stick out like that all of a sudden is a bit... iffy? Not sure what to describe it as, but it was an un-settling feeling :U

Originally Posted by The Baton of the Wind

But I digress: You contradict yourself, having a problem with our opinion whilst telling other people not to have a problem with others' opinions.

I am said to be a walking contradiction
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear but I never intended to say I had a problem with your opinion. I respect your strong view on the topic and your reasons, but again, it's just the way you went about it.

Originally Posted by The Baton of the Wind

Didn't say any of that, but that's nice...

Herp derp, that wasn't really directed at you. Sorry for that misunderstanding OuO

Originally Posted by The Baton of the Wind

Now see, if you'd started off with this instead you wouldn't come off as such an a-hole... Because I agree with most of what you said. Though, I'd say its not necessarily the art style but the atmosphere. But that kind of gets off on its own topic...

I can come off as a dickhead sometimes and I'm sorry for that :I

Atmosphere in games is really where it comes down to but it's nothing without art style.
It's like baking a cake; you need all the ingredients to make a great cake, otherwise, you either sacrifice looks for taste or vise-versa.

Re-revising my statement, when I want a 'dark' Zelda game I'm talking about subtle hints.
I don't want any "HEY, LOOK, DEATH!" or "WHOOPS, THERE'S DRUGS" everywhere. No, that's just silly. I want it to be the kind of subtlety where people who are fully invested in the plot to just pick it up or that kind of feeling where you think back to a game and realise what had happened and the themes involved, slowly putting the pieces together.
IT MAKES SENSE IN MY HEAD.
I SWEAR, I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

I normally would post a rather long post, riddled with grammatical errors, spelling failures, etc de infinitum. But, I am in a rather large hurry so......

I honestly would love some more darker Zelda games.......but.....I do not WANT Overall Darker Games. I want more philosophical games. Games like Majora's Mask. Their where some funny and light and cherry parts in majora's mask, but like the OP said, we want something from the romantic period. We want Philosophy. We want emotion. If you want to see an example of the perfect "Dark, Emotional, Philosophical Game", I would suggest anywho checks out Planescape: Torment. It will change your view on gaming, forever.

I don't wan the series as a whole to change, I think part of what makes the zelda series unique and wonderful is it's ability to make great games in so many different ways.

That said, I loved Majora's mask and it's darker story. The sense of urgency and hopelessness I sometimes felt when playing it (I once accidentally let the moon fall D= ) was really cool. I would love to see a game in the future go for this darker tone too. It would be very cool, for me, if we saw a darker game in the Twilight Princess style graphics. ^_^

But, I think the majority of the zelda community wants darker games because they've been with the series since day one and are wanting the zelda series to grow with them.

I would want the whole franchise to become a tad more darker, yes, but I don't want it to be about the graphics. I want the darkness to be psychological and subtle. If you look at Twilight Princess, the darkness is there, sure, but that is mostly just superficial. The monsters look terrifying and the game is literally dark with the twilight and all, but in the long run, this isn't scary because we know it's fiction - there is no way a gigantic carnivorous plant or a gigantic fossile will attack you in real life. Majora's Mask, on the other hand, is all about what goes on in the mind of the people and in the mind of you. It's not just the visuals, but every aspect in Majora's Mask work together to make you feel anxious and disturbed. It's something you don't realize before you start thinking about it because it's subtle. The mysterious and atmospheric music and the color palette crawls up your skin instead of spoonfeeding you. Hell, even Wind Waker was somewhat dark, despite the supercute graphics. And that is ultimately what I want from Zelda. A serious and complex world painted in a colorful and innocent perception of a child's mind - just with a tad more darkness added to it, like in Majora's Mask.

I loved Majora's Mask. I think that might be a reason why some may want it darker. Also, Zelda just seems like a game that could make the transition to being a darker type of game somewhat easily. I wouldn't much mind it. I think they could do it well enough where everyone would love it still.

Good call, Fyreball, there's so much philosophical juice you can extract out of some of these games. Have any other philosophy students picked up on this? Majora's Mask can be very obviously linked to the Eastern concept of 'eternal return', while metaphysical themes permeate several games in the series. Try reading about dualism, for example, while keeping Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, or A Link to the Past in mind. Link's Awakening even touches on epistemology. It's amazing how deep you can go with these games if you start getting curious enough to scratch the surface. I could probably keep going and expand on these trains of thought, but that would probably deserve its own thread.

I also really enjoyed Nico's post -- think you summed up my feelings better than I did. I love this point on the role of color:

Originally Posted by Nico

The mysterious and atmospheric music and the color palette crawls up your skin instead of spoonfeeding you.

Can't quite put my finger on a specific example but I seem to associate slight color variations with the mood changes in Ocarina of Time. Adult Link's Hyrule seemed to have a much murkier, foggier quality. I could swear that the color scheme was slightly muddier and/or 'washed out', but I'd have to play again to be sure. Majora's Mask also radiated a very sinister vibe in this regard, where sunlight would gradually fade to crimson as you approached the end of a time cycle. And again, I swear there is a slight overall color variation from Ocarina of Time --> Majora's Mask which helps to cast you in that weird "familiar yet exotic" emotional spell.

A game does not have to have dark (bland) graphics for it to be dark. When I think dark, I think Majora's Mask/Wind Waker before I think Twilight Princess, because the two former games have more of a dark story than the last one (WW's being the world and its inhabitants flooded by the gods to begin anew).

But, yeah, the darker (or better) a story is, then I'm all for it. Makes me feel connected to the plot, instead of just rushing through the game's cutscenes.

I think that the few Zelda games that have been dark pulled it off amazingly. I'd like a game that makes you want to jump out of your seat, how anxious you are that if you make a mistake it could result in the world ending. That's exactly what Majora's Mask brought to the table. I'm not sure if it's because it was dark, and no matter what you did, you knew that you'd have to reset time and start all over, or because it was such a high risk. I mean, it's a freakin' moon crashing into the Earth!...but I loved Majora's Mask.

With that said, my conclusion is: Do what Majora's Mask did.

having barely begun Majora's Mask I can still think of several ways it was 'dark' in a literal and non-literal sense. One Thing that sticks out in my mind is when the skull kid tells me he got rid of Epona. Also the sense of urgency when the timer runs short. I think if they could recreate such feelings with a Skyward Sword graphic style (I love the artwork of SS) they would have the ultimate Zelda. Also I think it needs more emotional depth in the character interactions. So many times while playing a Zelda game I see what the NPCs say and can't help but think "who would really say that?" if they want to make the games more immersive they should make they characters more relatable and unique with goals and fears and flaws like the rest of us. If the games were more character driven I think they would be far better

the desire for "darker" zelda games may actually be seen in this instance to be one that is more serious, or has much more depth and isn't afraid to tackle heavy ideas and topics - everyone loves a tragedy and things like the death of characters, the moon and vibe of MM, and other aspects have all been taken quite seriously by fans. i personally prefer when games, expecially role playing or adventure games, have substance. however, i still do appreciate the earlier zelda's and the oracle games.

also, it's possible that as the zelda fans grow up, they want games that will suit their current age as opposed to getting tired of the series and it's occasional childishness.

Originally Posted by Kuden

also, it's possible that as the zelda fans grow up, they want games that will suit their current age as opposed to getting tired of the series and it's occasional childishness.

I could say that OoT and MM are in some ways much darker Zelda games when compared to that of WW and SS. They're earlier titles too.

So it's not really about the fans growing up.

Silent Hill Dark, psychologically upsetting much like Majora's Mask with the moon looming over your head 24/7 and getting closer and closer making your subconscious act out in forms of rushing to beat the moon crashing scene. Not horror, blood/disgusting filled screen that is also SH.

Basically having a purpose for the 'dark' theme within the game that upsets you not out of disgust or anything like that. I don't see how you can accomplish this without another timed aspect within the game. :/ If one exists though, I wouldn't mind seeing that aha

Another example is again in MM when your killing the aliens to prevent them reaching the barn and abducting the girl inside.

In addition to what my previous post said, I would like a Zelda game where the mood is dark. The big bad took over, and left very little hope for a turnaround.

Also, I would like there to be a horrifying secret to the kingdom. We would think that Hyrule is a little too perfect at times, almost like an utopiab arring any takeover times. What I'm getting at is we kind of see this in Twilight Princess with Arbiter's Grounds. There are bodies everywhere, and the animated skeletons/ corpses could also be former inmates. I'd like them to delve into this building a little more as it remains quite a mystery. Was it a prison? Was it the last stronghold of the Gerudo? If it was a prison, how did the environment become so brutal that people were dying? If it was a Gerudo stronghold, did the Hylian army attack them?

Aside from those questions, the "big secret" idea I have is a catacombs of sorts. Catacombs are, essentially, mass graves. This can be huge if it were worked into the game correctly. How about instead of straight up power corruption, we have politicla corruption. It would bring a new twist to the series. You lead a rebellion to stop them, and they send their "elite" soldiers to face you. Then, you must take down each member, onebyone. The crrupted leader's army could provide for some interesting usage of the Catacombs idea in that when someone dies, they are buried in the Catacombs. TheCatacombs could also house the assassinated so that no one ever knows what truly happened to them aside from the assassin and the leaders.

I want a disturbing Zelda a la Majora's Mask, that deals with death, mystery and things that generally don't pervade the Zelda scene. Why? Because, "Hero saving the day in a world of light with minimal darkness" has been overused to death. It's time for it to close its doors and allow a new passageway to open up.

Im fairly certain that (as i work on a scenario/lead writer for a current metroidvania game im developing with a small team) most narrative decisions that has to do with making a game "dark" do not always have to exclusively have dark undertones like "Death", "Mystery" etc.

Metroid games (by definition) arent usually very "Dark" games, but theyve always had a great knack for making themselves feel alien and have moments of unease, which is something that cant be said much about games in the 16 bit era.

However, when i started to write the scenario for our game the ideas were to make it "as dark as possible" without ONLY focusing on blood, guts and making the game pitch black. I consumed a likely amount of almost two months of source material and was really impressed mostly by Tsutomu Niheis artwork and his dark cyberpunk tales (like BLAME!) and Vernon Vinge´s "Zones Of Thought" series, which both were "dark" sci-fi.

In retrospect, what i think made those two such extraordinary storytellers is the SETTINGS they place their books/comics/manga in and its one of the reasons i think that making "dark" narrative is more tied to the ideas and underlying principles of the world design in a videogame, instead of the violence and black/brown colour palettes.

I think its also the reason why Majoras Mask worked so well as a narrative. You CAN make the narrative dark without only resorting to the lower end of the spectrum.

Originally Posted by Shadow

Oooh, a thread with a title that's appealing to the eye.Yes, I like this..A DARKER Zelda game. I've imagined such a game many times, and conjured up some ideas..Two games in one. A game like the size of Skyrim? But here's the catch..Day and night have their own separate questlines. If not that, then they have their own different side quests and activities..

I like your idea of a Skyrim-sized game world with multiple quests and areas. I think it'd greatly improve the game to have that kind of advanced, exploratory world to go through. However, I'd obviously wish it to have the similar styles as the Zelda games like Skyward Sword and Ocarina of Time, with those kinds of graphics as well.

With me, the first Zelda game I ever played was Ocarina of Time for the N64. To me, it was absolutely the greatest thing ever. The story, the world, the villains and characters. It was fantastic! Then Majora's Mask came out and it became confusing as hell, but even more fun and exciting (not to mention the Majora is the most twisted villain ever). After beating those two games, I went and played through the older games and some handheld ones. I found the Wind Waker style graphics to be annoying and honestly dreadful, and as such never like the game or it's nds sequels.

Then Twilight Princess came out. I honestly hadn't seen much on the game (trailers and all) so when I played it for the first time, I was completely thrown for a loop. The graphics were really good and advanced, almost in a more realistic fashion than I was used to. Then the game became dark to the point of actually being slightly frightening. It was not the Zelda I fell in love with at all. In the older Zelda games, the only thing that scared me was the screams of the ReDead's. Those freaked me out. But this game was a whole new level of dark that didn't and still doesn't belong in the Zelda franchise.

Needless to say, I never finished Twilight Princess (or even gotten past the Ook battle in the forest temple or whatever it was) because I felt that it didn't embrace what I had come to love. To be completely honest, I hated it with a passion. It pissed me off.

So when I heard that Skyward Sword was coming, I was hesitant, believing that the darker tone was what Nintendo decided to do with the franchise, but I decided to give it a go. So I bought SS and popped it in. I turned it on and began a file and instantly I became worried. The dark quality of the opening sequence made me think that this was going to be another dark game like Twilight Princess, but then the bird popped out of nowhere and that's when I knew it was different.

Even that split second the bird was shown in the dream before Link awoke, I could tell it wasn't the same. It was, dare I say, just hilarious when he turned and came face to face with it. After he wakes, I found the graphics and style to be more cartoonish. The cel-shaded world wasn't exactly like what I loved, but it was a better quality version of it.

As I played through the game I found the colors and appearance of the areas to be fascinating and it made me feel like a kid again, discovering this bright bustling world all over again. The characters were great and the gameplay was off the charts. It healed the wound left by Twilight Princess and gave me some hope for the future of the franchise.

Basically, I don't like the idea of a dark Zelda game. There's nothing wrong with dark moments, but the game needs to have a look and feel like it's an amazing, beautiful world of possibilities, not some dark, scary world. Legend of Zelda isn't supposed to be dark, it's supposed to be bright and entertaining.

With all that, I leave you with the words that I will never forget, the words that defined the Legend of Zelda when I was growing up. The words that shall remain in my heart forever as a true Legend of Zelda fan....

HEY! LISTEN!

I would like Zelda games to have real emotion/thought provoking scenes as well as a darker more gritty and realistic tone, I LOVE the wind waker but theres something about TP that just appeals to me more than Skyward sword. Even in terms of Ocarina, its not that dark but its not exactly all cheers either theres still always that pressure there.
Majoras mask was a great game because of all the darkness in a game, I think the use of all those negative emotions in Majoras mask really sucks in the player and keeps them interested, interesting plot twists such as friends becoming foes or the deaths of some characters lead to feelings of betrayal or sadness and I think these would keep people more intrigued in Zelda games than knowing from the start of a game that everything's going to turn out hunky dory.
All this aside I like the ratio of happy/dark games that Zelda is running at now. and I will continue to play every Zelda game pumped out of Nintendo until they (God forbid) finish the series

Dark+Skyward Sword+Some new clothes for link=