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Old 04-23-2012, 12:27 PM
Rakshael Rakshael is a male United States Rakshael is offline
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Redemption in Zelda?

What if a Zelda put forth the theme of redemption? I know that in America, redemption is a common trope often used to prevent the hero from having to destroy the villain. However, it hasn't really been used in Zelda.

I envision the game going along these lines: Classic Zelda formula most of us love, bad guy does bad things, Link goes through dungeons to stop him, bad guy does more bad things, Link goes through more dungeons, then climax. Say we were to insert the villain's past history in, with perhaps a human and understandable reason for being evil, though no less wrong or corrupt. At the end, before/after the final battle, Link and/or Zelda convinces the villain that he doesn't have to end his life this way, and he turns away from being evil.

This wouldn't fit with a darker, gritty Zelda. It would be best in a game along the lines of ALttP or MC, but if done right it would be very mature. The game would ask questions such as "does the end justify the means?", "does might make right?", and "Should a wrongdoer get a second chance after what he's done?"

It could be Ganon, it wouldn't have to be, though. Imagine a character like Vaati self-contemplating at the end, and you being given a choice (scripted or free) to kill him or let him redeem himself. Killing him anyways would be the greater philosophical poser; would it be the right thing to kill him anyways? Shouldn't he get a chance to try again? Letting him live seems like a weak cop-out, though. He could just be using you or biding time; you would be almost betraying everything you've done up to this point to let him live.

In summary, I think this would be an interesting theme for a Zelda game. It could easily be used in a lighter game as a subliminal message, and would be a break from the normal straight-up "I'm evil, trolol" villains. Not that those are necessarily bad villains, just a variation in subject matter would be interesting and unusual for Zelda.
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:44 PM
Sweet SS Zelda Sweet SS Zelda is a male Canada Sweet SS Zelda is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakshael View Post
What if a Zelda put forth the theme of redemption? I know that in America, redemption is a common trope often used to prevent the hero from having to destroy the villain. However, it hasn't really been used in Zelda.

I envision the game going along these lines: Classic Zelda formula most of us love, bad guy does bad things, Link goes through dungeons to stop him, bad guy does more bad things, Link goes through more dungeons, then climax. Say we were to insert the villain's past history in, with perhaps a human and understandable reason for being evil, though no less wrong or corrupt. At the end, before/after the final battle, Link and/or Zelda convinces the villain that he doesn't have to end his life this way, and he turns away from being evil.

This wouldn't fit with a darker, gritty Zelda. It would be best in a game along the lines of ALttP or MC, but if done right it would be very mature. The game would ask questions such as "does the end justify the means?", "does might make right?", and "Should a wrongdoer get a second chance after what he's done?"

It could be Ganon, it wouldn't have to be, though. Imagine a character like Vaati self-contemplating at the end, and you being given a choice (scripted or free) to kill him or let him redeem himself. Killing him anyways would be the greater philosophical poser; would it be the right thing to kill him anyways? Shouldn't he get a chance to try again? Letting him live seems like a weak cop-out, though. He could just be using you or biding time; you would be almost betraying everything you've done up to this point to let him live.

In summary, I think this would be an interesting theme for a Zelda game. It could easily be used in a lighter game as a subliminal message, and would be a break from the normal straight-up "I'm evil, trolol" villains. Not that those are necessarily bad villains, just a variation in subject matter would be interesting and unusual for Zelda.
Redemption would be a very good theme for the Zelda games. It helps build understanding between the hero and the villain and the motives of the villain may not be world domination but something more benign. It would also help with the storytelling department as well, since it allows for a more complex plot without it being excessively dark or gritty. Often, the best villains are those that are sympathetic to the player. Redemption would also allow for interesting plot twists, in which the villain of the day suddenly allies with he hero to fight a greater threat.
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:55 PM
kymeric kymeric is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

Only way theyre gonna redeem ganon is by having him and link team up against a greater threat.

Bout the only reason i could see that happening is if theres some kinda anti-triforce like the upside down one on Demise's sword. Bad guy with full anti-tri-force would need all 3 of the good triforce holders acting together to beat em. I could see Ganon cooperating for that. But he probably wouldnt behave himself after the threat was gone...

Maybe a role like Galactus from the Fantastic Four? Sure hes an evil cosmic force who kills gazillions.... but he protects our universe against even WORSE things from outside the universe.

Din chose Ganon as the holder of power... the triforce brought him back in TP. Theres probably a reason for that.
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Old 04-23-2012, 07:30 PM
Phyrior Phyrior is a male Phyrior is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

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Din chose Ganon as the holder of power... the triforce brought him back in TP. Theres probably a reason for that.
Not Quite... The Trifoce, when split, goes to the person who embodies their respective Virtue most, so naturally Power gravitates to the most innately powerful power-worshipping person in the world, who 9:10 is Ganon/dorf.

As per the bringing him back bit, I think it was less a willful bringing back, and more of Ganon pulling a bit of a 'Force-drain' (cough-cough) on Zant's darkness, coupled with being so close to death that made him aware that he had it.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:02 PM
Major Liftz Major Liftz is a male United States Major Liftz is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

Redemption for the main character, yes. Redemption for the antagonist, not so much.

Black and white make such a boring story. I want a gray hero. Killing a hundred inocents to save a thousand, stuff like that.

See, if Link had a criminal past, I would like him a LOT more.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:50 PM
Phyrior Phyrior is a male Phyrior is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

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Redemption for the main character, yes. Redemption for the antagonist, not so much.

Black and white make such a boring story. I want a gray hero. Killing a hundred inocents to save a thousand, stuff like that.

See, if Link had a criminal past, I would like him a LOT more.
'A Blade that evil ones may never touch' -

There's your reason for it never happening. The only times Link could be 'evil' (stealing from the Shop in LA, Blowing up Sakon/The Moblin Gang.)

He either never got the sword (supposedly), was in a dream, or it was an inadvertant kill.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:52 PM
Major Liftz Major Liftz is a male United States Major Liftz is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

That's just the Master Sword though. Who says he needs that sword?

He could use the Four Sword or one of the DS swords.
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:06 PM
Justin Justin is a male Oman Justin is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

An easy to see example:

Link spends most of the game pursuing Ganondorf, who is rallying Hyrule's army to abuse the land and conquer.

Link penetrates Ganondorf's Tower/hideout/base and briefly duels with him.

Ganondorf's motives are revealed. Turns out the Hyrulean army is more violent than Ganondorf intended. (The cause could be a simple case of mob psychology). This bit might require more characters than just Link and Ganondorf to help convey the idea, as Link is mute and Ganondorf talking himself into regretting his actions might seem corny to me.

Ganondorf chooses to leave to stop the army. Link follows.

We witness Ganondorf's one-man battle against the army. It's a slow and gruelling process, but Ganondorf eventually falls dead after one-too many arrows.

This act of redemption inspires Link to fight and eventually either defeat or regain control of the army himself. Note that here the antagonist isn't so much of a single evil person anymore, but human nature itself. It might be tempting to throw in a few evil generals for Link to defeat, but that itself defeats the purpose of my little scenario.

Thus, the game is given an epic climax, while still allowing Ganondorf to "redeem" himself in a somewhat tragic way.

It doesn't even have to be Ganondorf, either. Replace him with whoever the main villain is going to be. Whatever happens, I would prefer a long, tough process of redemption as opposed to just one quick scene when the villain suddenly does something good. Show the villain's true and meaningful desire for justice by having him struggle for it.

As I said, this is just one example. There are many different ways this could happen, and STILL work for a Zelda game.
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:11 PM
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

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Originally Posted by Red Shadows View Post
That's just the Master Sword though. Who says he needs that sword?

He could use the Four Sword or one of the DS swords.
The swords are all proxies of one another. The same requirement likely applies to each.
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:13 PM
Phyrior Phyrior is a male Phyrior is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

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Originally Posted by Red Shadows View Post
That's just the Master Sword though. Who says he needs that sword?

He could use the Four Sword or one of the DS swords.
The Four Sword has a similar enchantment upon it, and if memory serves, so did the Phantom Sword and Lokomo Blade.

The only Master Sword-like weapon that was used by a potential thief (again, discounting the vandalism/kick the dog moblin-exploding of Oracles) was the Seashell Sword (my personal favorite). Once again, that was a dream.

If there was a 'neutral/anti-hero' Link, I think it should be along the lines of a Backstory Link who has to pull a Cecil and banish said darkness from himself, preferably in the form of Shadow Link.

Maybe the Whole Game could revolve around having to relive the atrocities of your former self/villainous doppelganger, with a Fable-style bad end if you succumb to the dark version, leaving you a hollow sandbox-environ in the end to go all crazy for (as you're now Dark Link), while the true ending will allow for a similar sandbox, but maybe with a final climax battle after enough preparation.
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:15 PM
kymeric kymeric is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

I ment that the Triforce of Power picked Ganondorf in the child timeline where he never got his hands on it. When the sages tried to kill him and it appeared on the back of his hand was the first time that version of Ganondorf had it. Its almost like he got it in the other 2 timelines so it chose him there too.

If theres got to be an avatar of pure Power... Ganons a good choice.
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:17 PM
Rakshael Rakshael is a male United States Rakshael is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

Keep it on-topic, guys. Redemption for the bad guy as a theme, not whether some COD-styled gangsta-Link with a shotgun gets to use the MS/LS/PS/FS.
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:19 PM
Phyrior Phyrior is a male Phyrior is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

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Keep it on-topic, guys. Redemption for the bad guy as a theme, not whether some COD-styled gangsta-Link with a shotgun gets to use the MS/LS/PS/FS.
Tell that to Red Shadows. I was saying why he shouldn't, and a possible (extremely thin) caveat.
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:22 PM
Rakshael Rakshael is a male United States Rakshael is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

lol, I'm not a moderator, haha! I'm just asking that the thread be "re-railed" at this point. I don't care if some guy thinks Zelda should be GTA or COD, but this isn't the thread for it.
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:57 PM
Sweet SS Zelda Sweet SS Zelda is a male Canada Sweet SS Zelda is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

I believe that a potential villain should be given a heel-face turn, since it would improve the story. Link being given a face-heel turn I will disapprove. I view Link as a chivalrous hero, not a rogue anti-hero. However, I view villains with the potential to become good.
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Old 04-24-2012, 12:04 AM
EternaLegend EternaLegend is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

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Originally Posted by Rakshael View Post
Keep it on-topic, guys. Redemption for the bad guy as a theme, not whether some COD-styled gangsta-Link with a shotgun gets to use the MS/LS/PS/FS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakshael View Post
lol, I'm not a moderator, haha! I'm just asking that the thread be "re-railed" at this point. I don't care if some guy thinks Zelda should be GTA or COD, but this isn't the thread for it.
I know you're not a moderator, but please do not rent-a-mod, even if you are the creator of this thread.

If anything is getting off track in here, report it or let a moderator of this section know about it.

Thanks~
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Old 04-24-2012, 12:36 AM
Phyrior Phyrior is a male Phyrior is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

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I ment that the Triforce of Power picked Ganondorf in the child timeline where he never got his hands on it. When the sages tried to kill him and it appeared on the back of his hand was the first time that version of Ganondorf had it. Its almost like he got it in the other 2 timelines so it chose him there too.

If theres got to be an avatar of pure Power... Ganons a good choice.
It did 'choose' him, but not by some choice made by Din or other such conscious concept.

The Triforce does not comprehend good or evil, it only goes to whoever most embodies its virtue.

As per the supposed 'choosing', it's because Link had inadvertantly acquired the triforce of courage when he was sent back, that sent the respective crests to Zelda and Ganondorf, as they best embodied those parts.

The difference between the Child and Adult timelines is this: Ganondorf never realized until his execution that he held it.

It's like how that one stupid 'UrbanLegendOfZelda' held that you could acquire the triforce in OoT, despite the fact you already held the ToC.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:14 AM
An Hero of Time An Hero of Time is a female United States An Hero of Time is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

That kinda/sorta happened with Skull Kid from Majora's Mask.

The Mask was possessing/influencing him to do evil things. It was letting him act out his hateful thoughts. Link destroys the mask, Skullkid is no longer encouraged to do evil. Link realizes that he's just a lonely kid much like himself, he forgives him, they become bffs, etc.

I'm not saying that I would mind seeing more redemption stories in Zelda. I definitely think that the series needs them.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:51 PM
Balthier Bunansa Balthier Bunansa is a female British Antarctic Territory Balthier Bunansa is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

Redemption could work in Zelda. One complaint I've always had with Zelda villains until Ghirahim came along was that most of them lacked depth, and the ones who did have depth (like Ganon or Zant) would reveal it so late in the game and it would be mindlessly cliched. Vaati is almost the perfect example of a terrible villain, having little depth of character, and not having anything new to bring to the table apart from a few more verses in the serie's mythology. Majora is the prime example of a villain who doesn't need redemption to make it great, as it is shown to have a mysterious but bloodthirsty personality. So could we give redemption to villains like Vaati who almost desperately need depth? Yes, we should. But it's not altogether critical.

...Although, looking at Vaati's stubborn fanbase, maybe I shouldn't have said that...
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:40 PM
kymeric kymeric is offline
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Re: Redemption in Zelda?

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Originally Posted by Phyrior View Post
It did 'choose' him, but not by some choice made by Din or other such conscious concept.

The Triforce does not comprehend good or evil, it only goes to whoever most embodies its virtue.

As per the supposed 'choosing', it's because Link had inadvertantly acquired the triforce of courage when he was sent back, that sent the respective crests to Zelda and Ganondorf, as they best embodied those parts.

The difference between the Child and Adult timelines is this: Ganondorf never realized until his execution that he held it.

It's like how that one stupid 'UrbanLegendOfZelda' held that you could acquire the triforce in OoT, despite the fact you already held the ToC.
I dont buy that, nothing is an accident. Thats like a cop inadverantly giving a crook his gun when he walks by in the mall. Din had intent. And the triforce has intelligence, as seen in OOS and OOA where it sends link on missions and talks.
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