A Mature Zelda Title

Originally Posted by Zeldablue777

Your killing me here. I never said anything about drugs and alcohol. I was more thinking about the negative themes of death and dying. People cared about TWW ganondorf because his people were dying. MM was really strong because it dealt with how normal people reacted to the end of the world while also dealing with their everyday life problems.

Dark has nothing to do with stupidity. It's sad that your equating them just because of the op.

Think of kid movies like lion king and Up they had mature themes that treated their small audience like understanding adults. when Lucas's mother is found impaled in the beginning of earthbound 3 after being attacked by their pet, it took me by surprise. When his father find out she's dead the townspeople try to calm him down and he ends up attacking them because he was so upset. He breaks down infront of his kids and gets arrested for hurting innocent people.


And that was a children's game. You wouldn't find something like that is Zelda anymore. Zelda has gotten progressively more sappy and less mature. They tend to avoid certain themes that used to be embraced.

Oh, okay. Yeah, that would be cool, and I agree they have grown a bit more childish. More death-related themes would be better, I guess.

Originally Posted by Primus

We don't, but many mature games are E10+ or Teen. When people ask for a mature game, they ask for darker themes. A theme suitable for a fantastical epic rather than a children's book.

He explicitly said in he's first post that he was talking about an ESRB's Mature game, not a Mature-themed game.

In the course of 8 pages of discussion, it's been my impression that the conversation has shifted to talking about things other than what usually warrant an M rating. This is for the best, since I really don't think this thread would even exist if the Zelda series were more similar to what Zeldablue777 describes. It's just that the kind of seriousness that some of us want to be in a Zelda game is far more commonly seen in things rated at least T, but even more commonly still, M. The rating doesn't need to be boosted all the way to M for us to get what we want from the series, though.

I could only manage to read through the first few pages of this thread and I am baffled at the majority of these comments... wrapped up they all say "No, Zelda is perfect as it is, Why change it, I dont like change, GORE VIOLENCE! BAD! Blah blah blah"....

Uhm.. hello? Stop stop stop.
Did any of you think to look at it from the perspective of "what if" Zelda began as a darker, more in depth, "M" rated game? Instead of focusing on how if they changed it NOW.
If Zelda started that way, how would you feel about it? Would you love it as much? Ect.

Also, some comments mentioned how a M/darker zelda game could not be bought by kids...well, I do believe that most Zelda fans these days are those of us who grew up with Zelda. Kids dont play Zelda as much as the older generation does. And a note to that is: 10 year old kids are now buying and playing M rated games as if they were E rated. We live in different times. So if it were M rated...kids would and could still have their parents buy it for them.

Now, having not read the last hand full of pages, and walls of walls of text, I do apologize if someone has already presented the question as such.

I don't understand why anybody would want the Zelda franchise lose its family appeal by adopting the M-rating. If you can't control your lust for blood and gore and absolutely need it in a Zelda game, you can go play Demons's Souls or Dark Souls instead. There ARE developers who cater to your tastes, like Vigil Games with their upcoming Darksiders II; just buy their games instead.

Originally Posted by NotAZeldaRelatedName

And a note to that is: 10 year old kids are now buying and playing M rated games as if they were E rated. We live in different times. So if it were M rated...kids would and could still have their parents buy it for them.

So parents these days are still as irresponsible as they were in the 90's? Good to know.

Originally Posted by Thegargoylevine

I don't understand why anybody would want the Zelda franchise lose its family appeal by adopting the M-rating. If you can't control your lust for blood and gore and absolutely need it in a Zelda game, you can go play Demons's Souls or Dark Souls instead. There ARE developers who cater to your tastes, like Vigil Games with their upcoming Darksiders II; just buy their games instead.

I don't necessarily think everyone who wants a mature Zelda game is merely asking for blood and gore. To be honest, I completely agree with you, in that these additions would be simply made for shock value and would really add nothing to the series, except become a distraction and/or narrow the audience of the Zelda franchise.

The only true way to really "maturize" Zelda is to give the characters complexity. I have not played Skyward Sword yet, so everything I talk about may be covered in there (I don't actually know). But in every Zelda game so far, every character's motivations are very one dimensional, and all of their personalities follow suit. Everyone in the universe is almost etched into an oversimplified idea of "good" or "bad", and none really have any character flaws as to why they act the way they do.
Make Ganon have some reason as to why he wants power. Maybe make him some type of anti-hero where over the course of the game (or maybe this happens directly before the events of the game) he succumbs to the temptation of power in a believable way. Make Link a bit selfish, and have him grow as a character and become a real hero only after the trials faced in the game.

Also, they should really remove tutorial sections/tutorial characters for gaining a mature game as well, or at least do them in a more tasteful way besides "helping at the ranch" or something, and instead simply plunge you into adventure the way the original LOZ did. Also, tutorial characters remove ANY sense of loneliness or hopelessness any of the games try to create. This is because Link is never alone and always has someone to communicate with. This is a big reason why Metroid Prime is able to create the atmosphere it does, merely because Samus is so alone in the face of such an alien environment/mission. (This is also why I believe MP3 wasn't as good as the previous two).

EDIT: Because people like reading posts more with pictures. Also, it's somewhat relevant:

@Sgt. Pepper: I'd love to see a Zelda game with a deeper plot and characters too. I was just responding to those who explicitly want the M-rated sticker on Zelda games, as if that would somehow make Zelda better.

Look at how the Xenosaga games present their plot. The series have very deep and complex plots dealing with mature themes, right down to it questioning the morality of religion. Yet, all of the games in that series are Teen-rated!

The "Child Timeline" Zelda games should use Xenosaga-style storytelling. This way, it can satisfy those who want deep stories without bringing in undue controversy.

Originally Posted by The Fanatic of Zelda

He explicitly said in he's first post that he was talking about an ESRB's Mature game, not a Mature-themed game.

Well given that this is an 8 page discussion, the subject of matter is bound to change within the limits of the Title. When I entered this thread, there was a discussion about making the game darker than the recent cheerful installment.

Also, no where in the context of my post (that you responded to) did I even suggest a rated M game.

Originally Posted by NotAZeldaRelatedName

I could only manage to read through the first few pages of this thread and I am baffled at the majority of these comments... wrapped up they all say "No, Zelda is perfect as it is, Why change it, I dont like change, GORE VIOLENCE! BAD! Blah blah blah"....

Uhm.. hello? Stop stop stop.
Did any of you think to look at it from the perspective of "what if" Zelda began as a darker, more in depth, "M" rated game? Instead of focusing on how if they changed it NOW.
If Zelda started that way, how would you feel about it? Would you love it as much? Ect.

Also, some comments mentioned how a M/darker zelda game could not be bought by kids...well, I do believe that most Zelda fans these days are those of us who grew up with Zelda. Kids dont play Zelda as much as the older generation does. And a note to that is: 10 year old kids are now buying and playing M rated games as if they were E rated. We live in different times. So if it were M rated...kids would and could still have their parents buy it for them.

Now, having not read the last hand full of pages, and walls of walls of text, I do apologize if someone has already presented the question as such.

I agree with this completely. Sides, I'm part of the older generation that already lost love for 'family appeal games' as they cover things from reality in order to appear with family appeal and cannot find them meaningful usually. I can't see how will I enjoy a Zelda game in it current state and even I played Minish Cap and aLttP in the past, but a M theme wouldn't fit in those two mainly because they're 2D and it would be tacky to fit in , but possible to fit into Zelda as it is not always sounds like it's for children from the past Zelda games. Basically a realistic 3D Zelda could have the Silent Hill or Resident Evil feel or any other horror games. Sides, I already mention at least Nintendo should do a mature rated game as long as they're doing one of the children simultaneously.

After reading through the most recent posts after my own, I realise that people are debating between what is 'dark' and what is 'gory'. Personally, I think, as many others do:

• Zelda does not need gore.

• Dark story lines are good.

But, as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, Nintendo has tried to give people darker story lines that your average Super Mario Sunshine Happiness. For example, Majora's Mask, is considered not just the darkest Zelda game in the series, but also one of the darkest games Nintendo has ever made.

When fans demanded something as dark as Majora's Mask, Nintendo gave them Twilight Princess. Then, fans moaned and said that Twilight Princess was a rubbish game because of items, dungeons, textures, etc and ignored the story line completely.

This is a game which tells the story of an entire tribe imprisoned for their crimes, who are torn between two rulers. One wants to bring chaos, the other wants to bring order. One wants revenge, the other wants forgiveness. This makes the player contemplate whether the Twili deserved to be imprisoned, or if the Ancient Sages should have forgiven them.

Then, there is the tale of a young boy and girl, who are almost destined to be together, until political chaos destroys their relationship, and leaves one with severe amnesia. One boy travels across the land to help restore her memory, retracing her steps in order to bring her back to him.

Finally, there is Zelda herself. Although she doesn't play a major role, she is the one who was forced to decide whether to die or surrender, for the sake of her kingdom. The player wonders; did she make the right decision, or is she a a ruler who failed her people? And when the last of her power is eventually sacrificed to save another, we realise what a brave person she really is.

Forgive me if I am moving off topic, but I think that before we demand darker Zelda, we need to examine what's already there. I would actually like a Zelda with more emotion and fear, but for now, let's appreciate what we have.

Twilight Princess may have had a sufficiently good story, but the execution -- the plot and whatever else -- was lacking. In addition, the gameplay itself, as well as other nitpicks, kept it from living up to its potential. In short: the story was fine, but everything else kind of detracted from it.

Originally Posted by Thegargoylevine

So parents these days are still as irresponsible as they were in the 90's? Good to know.

I don't see it as irresponsible to allow children freedom, especially in games. Films are one thing, since they seem so much more real. But I used to watch people play Resident Evil when it first came out, it never damaged me in any way. I knew from a young age what blood was, and death, not like it shook my world or anything. I simply now enjoy horror games and long for another game to give me that fear feeling that is as horrible as it is exciting. But that's beside the point.

As for Zelda, people seem to think graphics mean nothing, but graphics can set the mood. I think people often forget how Ocarina of Time was revolutionary and one of, if not the, best looking game when it came out. That probably helped a ton in why it appealed to so many people, because it was realistic for the time, it was full 3D and looked great. But somewhere Nintendo seem to have dropped this and people say that's just Nintendo, they never cared for graphics, all about the gameplay.

I enjoyed Wind Waker for what it was, but it simply doesn't compare to OoT, MM and TP (haven't played SS nor do I care to.) They felt like real epic adventures, you was alone for the most part. In more childlike games Link seems to be best friends with everyone and always smiling. In the 3 I mentioned, Link is more serious and doesn't have time to play it felt like.

The sun is always shining and the people don't have a care in the world, it just doesn't seem like it matters or not whether you beat Ganondorf, you may aswell just work on earning rupees or something. MM felt like I had to stop Majora so I could have time to spare and do the extras. Ocarina of Time had a nice sense of needing to get to the next temple and sort things out. Wind Waker felt like I should be able to decorate my house and play it like Animal Crossing or something. Fun game, but it doesn't feel like an epic.

When I think of a "dark" or "mature" Zelda I think of the creepy monsters, think of the skeletons and blood stains at the bottom of the well and the Shadow temple. Bongo Bongo had severed hands, it's not really gore, just not childlike either. Twinmold was another great boss example, alone in an empty desert, sand blowing with two giant centipedes going in and out of the sand. That felt like you was in limbo or purgatory or something. Ganondorf really felt evil too, banishing Phantom Ganon to the place between dimensions for simply losing a fight. I also recall Ganondorf coughing up blood when you do him in during the Phantom Ganon esque fight, then trying to crush you in the tower, and then in pure hatred and anger he transforms into Ganon. Even then he swears to exterminate all of Link and Zelda's descendants.

I like how Link feels alone, and I would often play the song of storms to better set the mood with the rain and lightning. I loved it when Kakariko was always pouring down with rain and everyone was indoors. Just felt cosey and lonely all at once. I couldn't wait for the next Zelda, Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask were realistic at the time, I thought the next game could only be more grand and realistic, they even showed that Spaceworld 2000 thing and I had thoughts of Link trecking through a woods, pouring down with rain, mud sloshing up from Epona's hooves. I really couldn't wait. Then I got the Mario Sunshiney Wind Waker.

Those are some of the dark elements that make more 'mature' Zelda games better I think. It's not about cutting someone's head off or Ganondorf having a collection of intestines like some people seem to think comes part and parcel with 'mature'. It's the feeling of it. I don't even think mature is the right word. I sincerely think it's how serious the game is that makes it more to my personal taste. Not that it should be void of fun, mini games are great, and the thriving castle town and Zora's domain are fantastic, and you feel sad when you become adult Link and it's all gone, even after completing the game it didn't change. But it really makes it sooo much more compelling.

Keep making the fun childish games, but they really do need a more serious Zelda game now, it's been awhile.

Yeah, a dark Zelda game is great--not the sappy, giggling-crush thing going on in some of the newer games that made me a little sick. Maybe something where everything didn't end with, "...and everyone lived happily ever after" for once. But I don't know.

To be very honest, it still kinda baffles me how some people say that Ocarina of Time was the best looking N64 game ever. Sure its a matter of opinion, cant argue with that. But imo, the whole 2D image environments in certain areas really made the game look crap and ugly for me. I mean just look at the Hyrule Market and outside of the Temple of Time and don't get me started on the lame 2D gray shops and houses. >_> If that's the reason why people love the game so much and want every Zelda with fake styles like that then I don't know it anymore. Just my opinion, but I've played better looking N64 games. =/ Majora's Mask and Donkey Kong 64 are nice examples imo, and if you're arguing about the whole expansion pack thing then there is also Super Mario 64 and Bomberman Hero that looked really nice for their times. Ocarina of Time in terms of graphics is definitely on the lower tier of best looking N64 games for me, even for the 3DS. (I prefer Kid Icarus Uprising and Starfox 64 3D) =/ Oh well, to each their own. v_v

Just wanted to say that. Back on topic.

Originally Posted by windwackster

To be very honest, it still kinda baffles me how some people say that Ocarina of Time was the best looking N64 game ever. Sure its a matter of opinion, cant argue with that. But imo, the whole 2D image environments in certain areas really made the game look crap and ugly for me. I mean just look at the Hyrule Market and outside of the Temple of Time and don't get me started on the lame 2D gray shops and houses. >_> If that's the reason why people love the game so much and want every Zelda with fake styles like that then I don't know it anymore. Just my opinion, but I've played better looking N64 games. =/ Majora's Mask and Donkey Kong 64 are nice examples imo, and if you're arguing about the whole expansion pack thing then there is also Super Mario 64 and Bomberman Hero that looked really nice for their times. Ocarina of Time in terms of graphics is definitely on the lower tier of best looking N64 games for me, even for the 3DS. (I prefer Kid Icarus Uprising and Starfox 64 3D) =/ Oh well, to each their own. v_v

Just wanted to say that. Back on topic.

The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time looked great for it's time, as Super Mario 64 and Donkey Kong 64 did in their times.

And nobody said it was the greatest looking N64 game ever made.

Personally I think The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D looks as good as Star Fox 64 3D, and I also think Bomberman Hero sucks in graphics.

If you just hate The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, then just don't play it.

Originally Posted by Jasmine's Wrath

Yeah, a dark Zelda game is great--not the sappy, giggling-crush thing going on in some of the newer games that made me a little sick. Maybe something where everything didn't end with, "...and everyone lived happily ever after" for once. But I don't know.

ABSOLUTELY!! I loved the bittersweet endings of the old Zelda! Link's Awakening was like, yeah you woke up, but now the entire island and everyone you made friends with has ceased to exist... and then of course the melancholy feel of the N64 title endings... especially majora's mask. I suppose WW's ending was a bit bittersweet as Old Hyrule was destroyed forever, but there was just too much hope on the horizon for the ending to seem truely melancholy like that of Majora's or Awakening's

At Windwackster: If your post was because I said "As for Zelda, people seem to think graphics mean nothing, but graphics can set the mood. I think people often forget how Ocarina of Time was revolutionary and one of, if not the, best looking game when it came out." Then I really think you need to properly read what I put.

Later N64 games may have looked better, not that I played many N64 games after Ocarina of Time, but at the time of Ocarina of Time being released it was one of, if not the best looking games when it came out.

I also think Wind Waker had a nice, somewhat depressing, ending. The start was great, mentioning the hero and how it all went wrong. Really seemed like it was going to be class. Then all the smiles and sunshine kicked in for 99% of the game until the end where Hyrule is left to the waves. I even felt sorry for Ganondorf, this was done well. But it's still not the serious game I was looking for, for the most part.

I'd love a really dark Zelda title. Like a mix between MM and TP would be amazing.

I actually like happy endings. Maybe the way to the ending might be rough, and there could be some unsolved issues at the end, but for the most part I prefer that my heroes enjoy the fruit of their labor (get the girl, lots of money, regain the throne, what have you)