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Old 11-28-2011, 06:33 AM
Crazyfreak Crazyfreak is offline
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[spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

Yes, I've had enough of all these substitute evil villians. after watching the ending of Skyward Sword and rewatching the ending of windwaker, Windwaker still leaves me a great impression of how a great villian is portrayed.

Here are my reasons
Zant, yeah he was a boss until we figured out that Zant was being manipulated by Ganondorf. Then he became psychotic and it really makes me understand that Ganon was the only one who could acted calmy and ♥♥♥♥ stuff up for both the Twili and light world. Of course since the interaction with Ganondorf was zero (much like Zelda's was) he didn't give us a good impression at all.

Bellum, Malladus. I don't think I need to explain this why they aren't good at all.

Ghirahim and Demise, Ghirahim is a good villian, he does stuff on his own. Causes some trouble... But he still never was a threat like Ganondorf in ocarina of time and windwaker were. Ganondorf didn't even attemp to fight you and just blasted you with one single blow away. Then in Windwaker Ganondorf owns Link again and again until the very end where Ganondorf lost the Triforce of power and he has to fight both Link and Zelda.

I guess, what I'm trying to say is that I miss Ganondorf's interaction, without some evil guy behind him or puppet he uses. Ganondorf was always manipulative, straight forward and used Link for his own plans.

I would really love to see Ganondorf again like how nintendo portrayed him in Windwaker.
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Old 11-28-2011, 06:52 AM
SuperDecimal SuperDecimal is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

I personally think the series shines the most in games that do not feature a plot that involves Ganondorf or the Triforce. For example, Majora's Mask and Link's awakening have been heralded as the high points of the series on the main console and the handheld. The freedom to create an entirely new story, free from the constraints of a traditional Triforce-centered plot does the series a major service in terms of creating fresh, unique experiences.

I think the mistake Skyward Sword made was to set up a character as well written as Ghirahim, with a flowing, constantly evolving character and personality, and then to "Zant" him suddenly somewhat at the end of the game for a completely new, unfamiliar villain that we otherwise didn't know or care about. Ghirahim was perfectly capable of killing Link - his [sadistic] charm was that due to his self-importance, he felt he was genuinely above Link, and felt obliged to restrain from killing him due to what one can interpret as a recognition that Link was a "lower life-form" that wasn't worth the time. Ghirahim is a far more formidable and sadistic villain than Ganondorf.

People generally (and largely) cite WW Ganondorf as sa great villain - but I feel this is because he was far better written as a tragic and borderline-byronic anti-hero.
It was the quality of the writing and characerization of the character that made him so well received - not the fact that he was Ganondorf.

In fact, to give a sort of valid credence to this, people often criticize TP for its clumsy writing, and very much disliked how Ganondorf was crudely jutted in at the end in a "surprise" moment and felt he was an unnecessary and irritating addition, prefering Zant as a new villain, before it was revealed Ganondorf was suddenly on the scene.


I think Nintendo first and foremost needs to refine its story writing and characterization. Which characters are then used in the game is secondary to this.

Ganon was also present in the cd-i games, but his appearance did not in any way mean that his appearance was an indication of good quality.

I think however, Nintendo are more acutely aware of their faults - especially their handling of TP, and are learning form it, if SS is anything to go by.

I'd personally love a game of the child Ganondorf, living the life as he described in WW, growing up in poverty, witnessing his tribe die around him, and become more enraged and jealous of the affluence of the Hylians, slowly turning him into a vengeful spirit who wanted to usurp and control everything the Hylians denied him and his tribe. Because other than WW, Ganondorf has largely been a one-dimensional villain that really doesn't add anything to the stories of the games, other to infuriate fans when he's suddenly included as a last-minute boss in a game that doesn't really need him as a character to function, or be told well.
Last Edited by SuperDecimal; 11-28-2011 at 06:58 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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Old 11-28-2011, 06:56 AM
Roku Roku is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

Who wrote Wind Waker? If Ganon returns, he or she should write the game. Ganon hasn't been a villian in 5 years, it's about time he returns.
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Last Edited by Roku; 11-28-2011 at 06:59 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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Old 11-28-2011, 06:59 AM
SuperDecimal SuperDecimal is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

He was in literally the last game, just before SS.
And then before in WW.


The only major console games he hasn't been in are MM (and now - to a certain extent - SS).
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:09 AM
Roku Roku is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

Yeah, but like CrazyFreak says we've had the portables. Which while canon, are more like gaiden(side story) games. It doesn't change the fact that his last canon appearance was in a game in which it feels like he was shoe horned in.

The question I want to ask is can we do more with Ganondorf ? (not Ganon) That form has been killed in both time lines.
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:10 AM
Crazyfreak Crazyfreak is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDecimal View Post
I personally think the series shines the most in games that do not feature a plot that involves Ganondorf or the Triforce. For example, Majora's Mask and Link's awakening have been heralded as the high points of the series on the main console and the handheld. The freedom to create an entirely new story, free from the constraints of a traditional Triforce-centered plot does the series a major service in terms of creating fresh, unique experiences.
Yes, Majora's mask and Link's awakening actually are excellent games with an amazing story. The good thing about Majora's mask that it was insane and that it wanted to destroy everything. Still when it comes to the main story of the Zelda series (with Mastersword, Triforce, Zelda) Ganondorf seems to be the better villian then the substitute villians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDecimal View Post
I think the mistake Skyward Sword made was to set up a character as well written as Ghirahim , with a flowing, constantly evolving character and personality, and then to "Zant" him somewhat at the end of the game for a completely new, unfamiliar villain that we otherwise didn't know or care about. Ghirahim was perfectly capable of killing Link - his [sadistic] charm was that due to his self-importance, he felt he was genuinely above Link, and felt obliged to restrain from killing him due to what one can interpret as a recognition that Link wa sa "lower life-form" that wasn't worth the time. Ghirahim is a far more formidable and sadistic villain than Ganondorf.
Agreed, I know Ghirahim did a better job than Zant. I really had a Agahnim feeling towards Ghirahim.. And I think Ghirahim was based off Agahnim's role.

Ghirahim is different from Ganondorf, somehow I never got the feeling I should have taken Ghirahim serious. His character was great and I love how different he is. But Ganondorf seems far more serious and threaten than Ghirahim. But that's because Ghirahim never really hurts Link except maybe at the end of the game where he kidnaps Zelda.

Still if you compare Ganondorf with Ghirahim, I still think Ganondorf achieved more in being a better villian. He ruled Hyrule for seven years, destroyed most peoples spirit, snatched the Triforce of power away, created evil looking monsters everywhere, used Link to get Zelda, didn't give a ♥♥♥♥ about the sages getting unlocked.

If Ghirahim attacked Skyloft, things would have been different. Ghirahim would have been an actual threat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDecimal View Post
People generally (and alrgely) cite WW Ganondorf as sa great villain - but I feel this is because he was far better written as a tragic and borderline-byronic anti-hero.
It was the quality of the writing and characerization of the character that made him so well received - not the fact that he was Ganondorf.
Agreed, yet we know Ganondorf's background history because of Ocarina of time. Which made me feel like I had more connection towards him than a random villian. In

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDecimal View Post
In fact, to give a sort of valid credence to this, people often criticize TP for its clumsy writing, and very much disliked how Ganondorf was crudely jutted in at the end in a "surprise" moment and felt he was an unnecessary and irritating addition, prefering Zant as a new villain, before it was revealed Ganondorf was suddenly on the scene.
True, I was very interested in Zant before the plot got hijacked by Ganon. But it seems Nintendo is constantly on this path nowadays. I just really want to see a main villian and not some puppet villian with a surprise at the end.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDecimal View Post
I think Nintendo first and foremost needs to refine its story writing and characterization. Which characters are then used in the game is secondary to this.

Ganon was also present in the cd-i games, but his appearance did not in any way mean that the game was of good quality.

I think however, Nintendo are more acutely aware of their faults - especially their handling of TP, and are learning form it, if SS is anything to go by.
Still after all these puppets like Ghirahim, Zant, Malladus and Bellum. I just want them to focus on a game with Ganondorf again... WITH THOSE DAMN GERUDOS IN IT.

edit: After Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, I just realise that windwaker still has the best final boss scene before it.

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Old 11-28-2011, 07:20 AM
Roku Roku is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

Wind Waker Ganon is my favorite Zelda villian. He's so complex. None of the other villains are that complex.
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:32 AM
Crazyfreak Crazyfreak is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

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Originally Posted by Roku View Post
Wind Waker Ganon is my favorite Zelda villian. He's so complex. None of the other villains are that complex.
True but like SD, it's mostly because he's written very well. But we still have his background story from ocarina of time. Which makes him indeed more complex than the previous villians.

I still want to see another game where Ganondorf becomes the main threat again and where he interacts more with the story. Just like Zelda is more interacted with the story this time. Why can't Ganondorf achieve this?

Ganondorf is the most cunning villian with a strategy and goal.

I do must admit, I love how Skyward Sword did have a A Link to the past feeling to it. If only they somehow manage to use the Dark world theme in it. I would flip ♥♥♥♥.
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Old 11-28-2011, 08:01 AM
Roku Roku is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

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Originally Posted by Crazyfreak View Post
True but like SD, it's mostly because he's written very well. But we still have his background story from ocarina of time. Which makes him indeed more complex than the previous villians.
Exactly WW Ganondorf is the only villain in the series to show character development.
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Last Edited by Roku; 11-28-2011 at 08:03 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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Old 11-28-2011, 08:22 AM
Nagumo Nagumo is a female Netherlands Nagumo is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

Post-game TP plot twist: Zant was controlled by Ganondorf who was controlled by Demise.

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Old 11-28-2011, 09:01 AM
Fal'Cie Fal'Cie is a male United Kingdom Fal'Cie is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

I don't think bringing Ganondorf back is the solution, rather we should have a Ghirahim level of interaction throughout the game with Ganondorf or Majoras level of urgency. I mean with Ganondorf we get about... three conversations with him per game? And very little insight apart from the oft quoted WW ending. I doubt we've ever seen a truly good antagonist in this series.

And I'd be remiss if I didn't say Malladus was bad, but Cole was delightful. Like a more efficient Ghirahim in a sense.
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:04 AM
Luna Tique Luna Tique is a female United Kingdom Luna Tique is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDecimal View Post
I personally think the series shines the most in games that do not feature a plot that involves Ganondorf or the Triforce. For example, Majora's Mask and Link's awakening have been heralded as the high points of the series on the main console and the handheld. The freedom to create an entirely new story, free from the constraints of a traditional Triforce-centered plot does the series a major service in terms of creating fresh, unique experiences.
.
Now I must say it. I don't even like MM and LA's storylines that much. Their stories didn't seem like the stories of Zelda games, and I don't mean that in a good way. Yes, I know you're all going to try and lynch me for DARING to bash anything about the beloved MM. It was the sidequests that made MM's story good, not the overall plot elements. The games with the plotlines that I like the most are ones that are set in Hyrule.
I also think it's about time that Ganondorf returned. Sure we don't need him in every game but he hasn't appeared since TP and that barely counts because it was so tacked on. I think he should be brought back, but if he is then it needs to be done right. No last minute surprise appearance like in TP and FSA.
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:08 AM
Crazyfreak Crazyfreak is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Tech View Post
I don't think bringing Ganondorf back is the solution, rather we should have a Ghirahim level of interaction throughout the game with Ganondorf or Majoras level of urgency. I mean with Ganondorf we get about... three conversations with him per game? And very little insight apart from the oft quoted WW ending. I doubt we've ever seen a truly good antagonist in this series.

And I'd be remiss if I didn't say Malladus was bad, but Cole was delightful. Like a more efficient Ghirahim in a sense.
I think it is. We've seen Zant, Ghirahim, Malladus and Bellum replacing Ganondorf's role. Yet not one of them ever comes close to what Ocarina of time and Windwaker Ganondorf are.

Ghirahim is good, but I still think Ocarina of time Ganondorf is better. Because instead of constantly fighting Link, like Ghirahim does. Ganondorf uses Link to achieve his goals.

I never understood why Ghirahim showed so much mercy, yet he fought Link twice and lost. He just loses his credibility, besides that Ghirahim has never done something that horrible while Ganondorf has.

I just like the idea of a villian who is always one step a head, Ghirahim and Zant clearly weren't at the end. While Ganondorf always was.
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:46 PM
Fal'Cie Fal'Cie is a male United Kingdom Fal'Cie is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

I agree, a manipulator antagonist is often good. I'd just prefer to have one that meets you more than at the middle and end of the story.

And definitely think he lost his credibility easily, but it makes sense when you realize he's a brute trying to be a chess master.
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Old 11-28-2011, 03:00 PM
Roku Roku is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

I think we need something that explores his character more in depth. Like Wind Waker but even more in depth.
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Old 11-28-2011, 03:27 PM
StinksAwakening United States StinksAwakening is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

TP Ganondorf wasn't even that bad, I don't even know why people are writing him off. He actually had very good dialogue as well... actually, some of the best I've ever seen in a Zelda game.

I understand that people are upset about him "hijacking" the plot, but it wasn't necessarily his fault... it was bad storytelling and plot progression. Heck, they even managed to make Link feel like a secondary character to Midna.
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Old 11-28-2011, 03:51 PM
Roku Roku is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

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Originally Posted by TurkeyMcBean View Post
TP Ganondorf wasn't even that bad, I don't even know why people are writing him off. He actually had very good dialogue as well... actually, some of the best I've ever seen in a Zelda game.

I understand that people are upset about him "hijacking" the plot, but it wasn't necessarily his fault... it was bad storytelling and plot progression. Heck, they even managed to make Link feel like a secondary character to Midna.
That bad writing gave him no depth. I agree though. It's the developers fault.
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Last Edited by Roku; 11-28-2011 at 03:52 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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Old 11-28-2011, 04:49 PM
Deku Tree Guy Deku Tree Guy is a male Canada Deku Tree Guy is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

After TP, I thought that Ganon should disappear for a few years, and then return, so we'd all be like, "YES!! GANONDORF!!!" And come to think about it, TP has been out for quite a few years now, and the next Zelda game we get will probably come out at least in a year, so I think it is about time for him to return.

---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:45 PM ----------

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Yeah, but like CrazyFreak says we've had the portables. Which while canon, are more like gaiden(side story) games. It doesn't change the fat his last canon appearance was in a game in which it feels like he was shoe horned in.

The question I want to ask is can we do more with Ganondorf ? (not Ganon) That form has been killed in both time lines.
Well, he can still easily come back. Demise's curse might have made Ganondorf immortal.
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:42 PM
Roku Roku is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

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Originally Posted by Behind_the_Deku_Tree View Post
After TP, I thought that Ganon should disappear for a few years, and then return, so we'd all be like, "YES!! GANONDORF!!!" And come to think about it, TP has been out for quite a few years now, and the next Zelda game we get will probably come out at least in a year, so I think it is about time for him to return.

---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:45 PM ----------



Well, he can still easily come back. Demise's curse might have made Ganondorf immortal.
People need to remember that Ganon was the final boss of all three Gamecube Games. so we got a bit sick of him. Now I think he's well rested and ready to return
Remember this deleted Twilight Princess quote ?

"When the chosen ones appear...They are always born into this world in perfect balance. That is the fate decreed by your gods, the only path for those who bear their crests. When this world brings forth another marked as you are...Know too, that it shall also be visited by one of my blood. Do not think this ends here... The history of light and shadow will be written in blood!" I think that this plays a part too in Demise's curse
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Last Edited by Roku; 11-28-2011 at 05:47 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:53 PM
StinksAwakening United States StinksAwakening is offline
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Re: [spoiler] Ganondorf needs to return as the main villian.

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Originally Posted by Roku View Post
Remember this deleted Twilight Princess quote ?

"When the chosen ones appear...They are always born into this world in perfect balance. That is the fate decreed by your gods, the only path for those who bear their crests. When this world brings forth another marked as you are...Know too, that it shall also be visited by one of my blood. Do not think this ends here... The history of light and shadow will be written in blood!" I think that this plays a part too in Demise's curse
Demise's last words were pretty much ripped straight from this. The only thing I still don't understand is how Ganondorf got the ToP. I know it has something to do with Demise's curse, though.
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