Should Ganondorf go away for a while?

If they keep bringing him back in more creative ways, I'm fine with that.

For example, they could have him as Gerudo in one game, blue pig thief in the next, and some other thing in the next. They could make a game, for example, where some strange occurance takes place that means that Ganondorf is granted the Triforce Of Wisdom, and Zelda is granted the Triforce Of Power. Or they could make a game where Ganon is some demonic lost soul who jumps from body to body, trying to find a new host after the death of his Gerudo form. Hell, they could pull another Zelda II if they wanted, and have Ganon's minions still fulfilling some grand plan of his despite his absense.

What I'm trying to say is that whilst TWW and TP signified the end of Gerudo-era Ganondorf, he will still be a driving force of the series, wether it be through a physical form, a spiritual form, some form of reincarnation or whatever else Nintendo has to offer us. I particularly like the idea of Ganondorf being reincarnated like Link and Zelda are, but with Ganon and Zelda being granted the wrong Triforce pieces, and the two both taking on morally-ambiguous roles.

Ganny needs to take a rest for a few games. We need new enemies for once. And when they do bring him back, they need to bring back his real beast form again, and not the crappy TP one.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainDecay

Let's look at a few of the goodies from this, hey?

Sideshow Bob: Hello Bart...
Bart: Oh its you Bob. How' ya doin'?
Sideshow Bob: No screams? ...not even..an "Eep."?
Bart: Hey, I'm not afraid of you. Everytime we tangle you wind up in jail!
The Simpsons

Or in other words...

Ganondorf: Mwahaha!
Link: o hai. sup.
Ganondorf: What? I don't even get an "I'll never let you win!"?
Link: No. I know you won't win because you didn't any of the last 8 times my bloodline killed you.

The process by which a villain who is extremely scary on first appearance becomes a total joke after a few more appearances.

Ganondorf has absolutely no threat level whatsoever any more. We've just been there, done that too many times. In the scare factor department, he has nothing left to give, because we know exactly what to do - play a brief match of energy ball tennis, reduce him into bacon when he goes pig mode, and then stab him a few times in head and/or heart.

Most writers will try to stop this decline in menace, which sometimes helps and sometimes makes the Villain Decay worse. Standard tricks include:

So, Ganondorf is suffering from Villain Decay, that's been established. Now let us see what the cure is:

Softening the villain up in the hopes that this will make the villain interesting even when losing threat value.

See: tWW, and this was basically the entire point of Ganondorf in tWW (tWW should have been his final appearance...)

Have a Ratings Stunt where the villain kills off a character, and thus becomes scary again.

See: TP, where he gets Zant to kill Midna. This failed on two levels because a) Midna didn't actually die, and b) she was an annoying ♥♥♥♥♥ at times so nobody really cared anyway.

Give the villain a new weapon or power. This gets old fast unless it becomes the basis of the show.

See: every single ♥♥♥♥ing Zelda title except the original tLoZ.

Bring in a new, stronger villain, and downgrade the old one to a flunky of the new one or a secondary threat. Repeating this leads to the Sorting Algorithm Of Evil.

Hasn't been done, could work. After all, many of the recurring villains in other Ninty series are just recurring bosses, not the final game end boss. Ridley and King Dedede show this can be done quite nicely.

Bring in a new, stronger villain and then reveal the new villain as a flunky of the previously decayed one. Some of the new villain's cool might have rubbed off on the old one, right?

See: Zant. Might have worked, except Zant was a much better character than Ganondorf and overshadowed him to the point where Ganondorf was totally unnecessary and shouldn't have featured. See also: Vaati in FSA. Didn't work because mindless monster eyeball Vaati sucked compared to devious wind mage Vaati.

If you can't do either of the above two, you can theoretically put off a villain's decay by using said villain sparingly.

Could work. Giving him a suitable break would be nice.

Turn the villain into a comic-relief pest.

Ganondorf is about as humourous as donkey rape - if you laugh at it, there's something wrong with you.

Escalate the villain's crimes. Win or lose, a villain who plants nuclear bombs is scarier than one who robs banks, at least, in theory.

This would be hellishly hard to pull off. Considering the series has had Majora, who wanted to destroy the entire planet and reduce everything to lifeless rubble, Ganondorf can't really do much in comparison.

Lower the stakes, so that the villain can win occasionally, but it won't end the series right there.

See: OoT after the third dungeon.

Completely redo a villain's motivations

See: OoX, where his motivation went from "take over the world" to "destroy all humans!".

Force hero and villain into an Enemy Mine scenario against a greater threat, then restore the status quo, as this allows the villains to technically win for once and show off their talents.

Could work. Again, this ties in with making a newer, stronger villain.

Show an Alternate Universe where the villain has won.

See: OoT after the third dungeon.

Make sure the hero's victory is only by the narrowest of margins, with a price paid. Generally a preventive measure rather than a corrective one.

See: tWW's ending.

Have the villain do something so awesome that we don't notice the decay, such as delivering a hilarious zinger, a chilling Hannibal Lecture, or suddenly kicking peoples' butts left and right. Much easier to mess up than do correctly.

See: tWW's boss fight, where he learnt to dual wield katanas.

Put them in a situation where the villains can temporarily be Anti Hero protagonists to show how powerful and skilled they are in a way that the audience will accept.

Involves playing as Ganondorf, which would in turn once again involve that concept of a newer, stronger villain.

Trapping the villain in some kind of containment field, forcing him to rely on agents to do his bidding.

See: TP, Zant, Twilight Palace, etc, etc.

If you're designing a villain for a videogame, you can just have the villains ignore any victories by the heroes.

See: TP (Zant shows he can turn up at any time and kill Link, despite the fact Link makes real progress Zant knows about. Instead, Zant just messes around and slaps Link's ♥♥♥♥♥ up).

Start an Enemy Civil War.

Could work, but would have to involve an enemy/enemies at least as powerful, if not more powerful than, Ganondorf.

Second-to-last resort: ignore the decay and just have characters talk about how evil and scary the villain still is.

See: TP. Didn't even work there.

The last-ditch resort: let the villain get more pathetic, and do a Lampshade Hanging about it every episode.

tLoZ is basically at this point by now. They've basically been through almost every single trick in the book to actually make Ganondorf work, and he's still lacklustre.

So; you basically have two options: downgrade Ganondorf and introduce a far stronger evil overlord, or you retire Ganondorf for maybe three games or so. Personally, I think Ganondorf needs to get outwitted. He's always using pawns, and for some reason, they're thick as houses. Time for an intelligent pawn, who starts out seemingly obeying Ganondorf... then at a crucial moment stabs him in the back, takes control, and starts dishing out pain. A Kefka to Ganondorf's Gestahl.

Originally Posted by Hyperactivity

The presence of stale plot elements and themes does not merely affect cutscenes. Majora's Mask, as an example, had an entirely different direction to that of Ocarina, despite gameplay that was essentially very similar. Much of the change that came about in that title was merely through the music, puzzles and storyline actively conveying different ideas.

You didn't really explain how it wouldn't only effect cutscenes.


Let's say that instead of Majora's mask bringing the moon down, it was ganon. What would be the difference? Majora's Mask itself was hardly in the game and hardly talked about in the cutscenes anyway.


Ganondorf leaving wouldn't effect anything important about the series, so let him stay.

I don't see a problem in giving him a little rest for a while, but taking away ganon would be like taking away....Zelda.

Hmm... taking away Zelda.

For some reason, unbidden thoughts of LA and MM pop into my mind. I wonder why that is?

Originally Posted by Tigerboi

You didn't really explain how it wouldn't only effect cutscenes.

To clarify; I don't think that a mere villian change (were it the only change) can affect the tone of an entire title, but I do think that Nintendo, at least in the case of Majora's Mask, crafted everything in a very directed fashion. They used masks in thematic fashion, along with a remixed version of the Majora theme within the cursed areas, and a host of other content I could go into, but it would only try your patience.

Let's say that instead of Majora's mask bringing the moon down, it was ganon. What would be the difference? Majora's Mask itself was hardly in the game and hardly talked about in the cutscenes anyway.

But Majora's Mask was perfect for the title. For one, the important story of Skull Kid wouldn't have occured, and we would have had a major problem with motivation - Ganondorf is powerhungry, not suicidal. Nor does he intervene with the lives of others only for malicious reasons, which was a defining trait of Majora's Mask.

Furthermore, even the design of the Mask held relevance to the rest of the plot. Majora's Mask was heart shaped with barbed spikes portruding from it - symbolising corruption, a strong theme regarding Skull Kid. The four spikes that adorn the Mask's sides also correspond in colour to the four compass directions. There are lots of tidbits of information like this, and they are why I enjoy the game - everything had direction in the manner in which it was presented.

Ganondorf leaving wouldn't effect anything important about the series, so let him stay.

I agree that Ganondorf is rather small if we look at everything on a grand scale, but his inclusion will only justify the use of other stale elements needed for his return. And quite honestly, in Twilight Princess, his presence held severe change for the worse. His rehashed presence cheapened and lessened the possible Interloper cotent that had been developing well prior to his inclusion.

I don't see a problem in giving him a little rest for a while, but taking away ganon would be like taking away....Zelda.

Hyrule, Zelda, Ganon? These have little to do with what really defines the series.

really I'm sick of people saying "OH Majora is so cool! He wants to drop the moon and kill everyone!" I know that's not the purpose of this thread but it irks me anyway. Now consider this: Ganon doesn't kill the people because that would be letting them off easy. Instead he just makes them suffer for seven years.

Majora makes the people suffer but in three days it will all be over.

Now who's better? The dude that makes them suffer for seven years or three measly days?

As to the topic of this thread if Ganon became even more terrifying, we actually see him go on a rampage killing people left and right(possibly Zelda only she doesn't come back) then I think that would fix things. Just show him actually doing a bunch of evil stuff rather then let the player imagine what he did.

Another idea, pull a Sonic Adventure and have him be the main villian only to get his plans derailed and he is forced to rely on Link to help him clean up the mess he got himself in. This could work by making it so that Ganon and Ganondorf become seperate entities so both Link and Ganondorf need to fight beast Ganon. Link because he wants to stop the chaos and Ganondorf because he wants his power back.

No, I don't want to see Ganondorf's character taking a break any time soon because I want to fight him with Wii Motion Plus controls in Zelda Wii.

And face it, for the long run, Ganon is here to stay. If Nintendo ever made the decision to remove him permanently from the series, they'd recieve so much backlash from the fanbase that they'd be forced to bring him back. Deal with it.

---

Originally Posted by Meeps

No, I don't want to see Ganondorf's character taking a break any time soon because I want to fight him with Wii Motion Plus controls in Zelda Wii.

And face it, for the long run, Ganon is here to stay. If Nintendo ever made the decision to remove him permanently from the series, they'd recieve so much backlash from the fanbase that they'd be forced to bring him back. Deal with it.

---

That sounds like something I can see a company doing actually; remove Ganondorf for maybe a whole generation of consoles, and bring him back in such a badass, revamped non-Gerudo form that people forget why they ever doubted his capabilities in the first place.

I mean, we went 7 or so years between ALTTP and OOT without having a console game at all, 5 or so years without Ganondorf would be just the break he needs.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

really I'm sick of people saying "OH Majora is so cool! He wants to drop the moon and kill everyone!" I know that's not the purpose of this thread but it irks me anyway. Now consider this: Ganon doesn't kill the people because that would be letting them off easy. Instead he just makes them suffer for seven years.

Majora makes the people suffer but in three days it will all be over.

But on the other hand, in three days it will be over forever and ever and ever. With Ganondorf you just have to wait till his eventual death.

Now who's better? The dude that makes them suffer for seven years or three measly days?

This is a classic example of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...n.JustShootHim on Ganondorf's behalf.

Personally, I'll go for the guy destroys everything.

As to the topic of this thread if Ganon became even more terrifying, we actually see him go on a rampage killing people left and right(possibly Zelda only she doesn't come back) then I think that would fix things. Just show him actually doing a bunch of evil stuff rather then let the player imagine what he did.

Won't work by now. That's more a preventative measure - you can mantain their evilness by have them constantly do evil things. If he started being manical and shoot the dog-ish now, it would just seem out of character, and really stupid compared to his previously established characteristics.

Another idea, pull a Sonic Adventure and have him be the main villian only to get his plans derailed and he is forced to rely on Link to help him clean up the mess he got himself in. This could work by making it so that Ganon and Ganondorf become seperate entities so both Link and Ganondorf need to fight beast Ganon. Link because he wants to stop the chaos and Ganondorf because he wants his power back.

...which basically falls under the category of Enemy Civil War and Anti-Hero and Downgraded Villain, which I've already touched upon.

Crab: Yeah but to the common people it's only three days so what does it matter? It's not like they're aware they continue to live the same three days of torment over and over again.

While that may seem incredibly cool I'll have to disagree one who is more evil.

If you ask me his "tantrum" after being stabbed with the sword in TP seemed rather out of character.

I agree but it's good that you touched on them as they're probably necessary/good ideas to keep ganon around.

What I meant more was that if Link fails to defeat Majora, it's the end of the world. If Link fails to defeat Ganondorf, it's just another fifty or so years of misery for humankind (and Goronkind and Zorakind and so on) until Ganondorf dies of old age. Majora's plan is much more devastating.

I really just think that if you want to keep Ganondorf, he needs to be made much, much more like Ridley - never the main big bad, but he's always involved.

I don't see how that's helpful to the people. I mean what is this you just have to endure fifty years of hardship and then we're done? Seriously do you think they care! Besides I would assume that Ganon would have some way of continuing his rein of terror. After all look at how many times he's come back it just seems inevitable that he'll find a way to torment them for all eternity.

Fifty years of hardship and then life as normal isn't as bad as death for everything for the rest of time.

Crab: As I said I find it hard to believe that Ganon would just let himself die so easily. I mean he survived for centuries in the SR and was still alive by WW. Plus Twinrova is four centuries old and could have probably lived longer so we can't really say that Ganon has to die at the same age as a human.

Ganondorf was bound in the Sacred Realm, it'd be fairly easy to presume age does not progress there. Also, the Twinrova sisters were very different from ordinary Gerudo - we know that there is only ever one Gerudo male at a time, once every 100 years, so therefore male Gerudo therefore must live 100 years, then they spawn the next male Gerudo, then cop it.

Dude when you have the triforce of POWER nothing stands in your way until the other two show up.

That's Ganondorfs only weakness. He can own any "badass" new villian you want for the new Zelda wii. But Ganondorf still tops it since he has the ancient power of the godess Din.

This is also the reason (well the reason TP ♥♥♥♥ed up) why Ganondorf, Zelda and Link have these encounters. People started nagging about Ganondorf after Ganondorfs encounter in TP. Before people were still hyping up what kind of role Ganondorf has!

Ganondorf will make an encounter on the next Zelda wii, and this time he will probably take the main protagonist role again.

Miyamoto said in his latest interview that people were criticizing Twilight Princess because it differentiated from the old school Zelda tale. He told the interviewer that these critiques were not going to be ignored....

Nintendo should never dump Ganondorf, never ever. Now I'm not saying this just because I'm a fan of the guy, but because he has a lot of unexplored potential of which we've only had a small taste in TWW. He seems to have a dualistic personality stemming from a troubled life of which I wish Nintendo would explore some more.

We don't need a replacement if you ask me, we need a new kind of Ganondorf. This is just wishful thinking but I would love it if Ganon got the Joker's 'The Dark Knight' treatment where they take him more seriously.


Besides that, he is to LoZ what the devil is to Christianity. You can't just dump him, because he isn't just an ordinary villain. Maybe that's the kind of role he should take for the next game? Like some sort of omnipresent evil haunting hyrule. I think that would be cool and different.

I want to see more Ganon but less Hijacked By Ganon. It was great for ALttP but it was not that great when TP did it. I was like "Oh look, another Agahnim. D:" Either put Ganon as the main guy for the whole story or leave him out utterly.

Originally Posted by Florina Belmont

I want to see more Ganon but less Hijacked By Ganon. It was great for ALttP but it was not that great when TP did it. I was like "Oh look, another Agahnim. D:" Either put Ganon as the main guy for the whole story or leave him out utterly.

Please and thank you.