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  #41 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 08:52 AM
andi andi is a female United States andi is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsuné View Post
That's a great idea, actually, andi--just to build on it: what if members could see their own deleted posts? (not the actual post, but the message site staff and retired staff see) I'm 90% sure that when a mod deletes a post, it has a reason box, like it has when you delete your own post, or edit. Mods should leave a comment there as to why they've deleted the post; a sentence of explanation to save a thread of drama. :>

When I say "should", I mean "make it obligatory".

Or better yet, why not make it so that all deleted posts can be expanded and seen by anyone, along with the moderator reasoning that's left behind? If there's a serious post, like pornbots or serious virus postings or an /i/attack, you could always just do the normal type of deletion or censor the post a bit before you did that.

Staff members can always see the deleted posts in any section of the site they have power in. Retired staff is allowed to see whenever posts are deleted, but not their content. It wouldn't take much effort at all to have something digg-style where you have a message to indicate a deleted post and your own option to expand it to see what happened and why. See below. :3




Brilliant idea, Kit! :3 Is there a way we could get this implemented? It'd be an amazing idea, and would certainly completely address one of the biggest issues in this thread. :3
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  #42 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 08:55 AM
Anime_Queen Anime_Queen is a female United Kingdom Anime_Queen is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

^ Pred, I actually kinda agree.
When Tiroth told me off, I was all for leaving the posts undeleted for this very same purpose. You and I would reach a conclusion, and people might have actually jumped in and made it a discussion rather than just posting inane lists and not at all engaging in discussion. 'sides, the "argument" that sparks often peters off into a discussion. I believe. I'm sure. >.<


also..



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsoonay
That's a great idea, actually, andi--just to build on it: what if members could see their own deleted posts? (not the actual post, but the message site staff and retired staff see) I'm 90% sure that when a mod deletes a post, it has a reason box, like it has when you delete your own post, or edit. Mods should leave a comment there as to why they've deleted the post; a sentence of explanation to save a thread of drama. :>

When I say "should", I mean "make it obligatory".



ULTRAAAAA


ULTRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA




ULTRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!




Q.E.D
This is the best suggestion that I have seen in many many MANY months.
It resolves the whole issue FULLY.


I was going to argue back with andi and say "how can moderators catch up with each and every person and tell each of them why their posts were deleted? it'd take another day besides each day!"

Enter Kits with fantastic idea.


+1000 vote for this to be implemented.
Everyone instantly knows why their posts were deleted, and mods don't have extra work to do with explanation; as well as people feeling that the whole process is a lot more transparent and fair, and not "hiding" anything.



EDIT - andi, I notice how you completely skipped past my issue with the point you made! :p
What to do if a person insists that their rule breaking isn;t rule breaking even after it's been explained to them?
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  #43 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 08:55 AM
the_Predator the_Predator is a male Bosnia the_Predator is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anime_Queen View Post
Gerudo's account mysteriously disappeared completely a while back; and no explanation had been found, even way before he was removed from the mod team. This new account is actually his new "dnice" account, which he then changed his name back to.

Also, we're saying it's silly to quote examples from gerudo NOW to try and justify claims against the mod team because he was removed by staff. Not just normal demotion - but actual complete removal. Because it wasn't deemed fit that he SHOuld represent staff. Therefore, using him as an argument as to why staff sucks now is a more than a bit outdated.
If he wasn't removed from the staff willingly by Jason or some higher up then it means that according to them there wasn't anything wrong with his modding. I am sure that you'll agree with me that THAT was not the case.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Anime_Queen View Post
There ARE rules.
Spam and rent-a-modding, amazingly enough, are AGAINST the rules.
Only, you're arguing against how your spam and rent-a-modding isn't spam and rent-amodding.
You're refusing to abide by the rules, then are surprised and angry when a post gets deleted.
Yes they are. But as I elaborated above, and Andi- did so too, rent-a-modding shouldn't be against the rules, at least not in all cases. And secondly, I have also elaborated why my post wasn't spam. Numerous times. You just chose to ignore it. It would have been spam if there was something to derail the topic from. But the topic itself was already messed up. The issue it seems here is that picture-only posts are looked down at as spam no matter what message they carry. Again a stupid rule. Images can have a much stronger message than words, which is the case here.
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  #44 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 08:56 AM
Tiroth United Kingdom Tiroth is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

Um...andi? That kinda defeats the whole point of deleting a post. Which is, y'know, to get rid of it.

EDIT: DAMNIT, more frickin' posts. -_-;

@Pred: We're really not meant to be talking about this, but you've managed to grab the wrong end of the stick. Gerudo didn't leave the mod team; he was booted off it. As in "you're fired". The reasons should be obvious. As for your second "point", please get over yourself. Your post was spam, and you were rent-a-modding. You were breaking the rules. Fact.
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  #45 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 08:58 AM
Kitsuné Kitsuné is a male United Kingdom Kitsuné is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

It'll be interesting to see how many posts get deleted for veering slightly off-topic when a written explanation is required. :3

There seems to be a common misconception that moderating is simply clicking buttons and deleting by your discretion--this is starting to turn out to be true. There should be a post deletion guide for mods, as well as banning/infracting--how many points you get/whether your post is deleted shouldn't depend on what mod happens to be online. : /

I'm not saying this to suggest elitism, but it's hardly a secret that some mods are tougher on spam than others.
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  #46 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 09:02 AM
Anime_Queen Anime_Queen is a female United Kingdom Anime_Queen is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_Predator View Post
If he wasn't removed from the staff willingly by Jason or some higher up then it means that according to them there wasn't anything wrong with his modding. I am sure that you'll agree with me that THAT was not the case.
Jason/Scott basically told him that he wasn't welcome on the team anymore. Because they felt that everything was wrong with the attitude and modding.
NOW can you please stop using Gerudo as a tool to crusade against staff?


Quote:
Yes they are. But as I elaborated above, and Andi- did so too, rent-a-modding shouldn't be against the rules, at least not in all cases. And secondly, I have also elaborated why my post wasn't spam. Numerous times. You just chose to ignore it. It would have been spam if there was something to derail the topic from. But the topic itself was already messed up. The issue it seems here is that picture-only posts are looked down at as spam no matter what message they carry. Again a stupid rule. Images can have a much stronger message than words, which is the case here.


Preds ..
I'm actually drawing a wee guide right now juuuuust for you :>
Spam: post that contributes NOTHING to the thread
doesn't address the thread topic
doesn't address or add ANYthing to any even peripheral or sidetrack discussions of a thread.


What did your post of just a picture of "thread failed" add?



Re: Kits' fantabulous idea: no, I disagree with andi that it should be collapsable and anyone can view the post. That is pointless ("let's delete abrasive pictures, porn and insults" <-- then kid presses "view" again. Pointless. )

Just have it like we retired staffies have: it just shows what posts are deleted, and the reason.
That should more than cover it.
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  #47 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 09:03 AM
andi andi is a female United States andi is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiroth View Post
Um...andi? That kinda defeats the whole point of deleting a post. Which is, y'know, to get rid of it.


And so I ask the question - is the point of deleting a post really to completely get rid of it?

I, and every other mod on the site, used to copy the offensive parts of every deleted post to explain what rules were broken and thus why posts were deleted.

Deleting posts do nothing if you don't explain why they were deleted, and you can't explain why they were deleted unless you have an example to back them up. And making it optional for people to view deleted posts and creating a deletion/infraction system based upon "replying to a rule-breaking flame in a deleted post" rule or something would be a perfectly effective system instead. :3

The point of deletion, I (and most people) always thought, was to show mod disapproval and prevent an escalation of flaming and rule-breaking that tends to happen when one person starts being a jerk. This system would do that, by showing that a post is deleted and why and preventing people from replying to those sub-par posts, and would also serve to educate anyone as to what sort of behavior is acceptable and unacceptable on the site. :3

:3 I think it would work and be wonderful, but I can understand that the first idea (Kit's) would be more useful and easier to implement at first. I don't think it would solve all of the issues fully like an optionally-censored didactic system would, but it would certainly accomplish a lot. :3
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  #48 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 09:05 AM
the_Predator the_Predator is a male Bosnia the_Predator is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiroth View Post
Um...andi? That kinda defeats the whole point of deleting a post. Which is, y'know, to get rid of it.
Being able to see who deleted the post and why would still get rid of the post and give an explanation to the one whose post has been deleted. Problem solved.

EDIT: DAMNIT, more frickin' posts. -_-;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiroth View Post
@Pred: We're really not meant to be talking about this, but you've managed to grab the wrong end of the stick. Gerudo didn't leave the mod team; he was booted off it. As in "you're fired". The reasons should be obvious.
Alright then. I still argue that it took them "long enough".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiroth View Post
As for your second "point", please get over yourself. Your post was spam, and you were rent-a-modding. You were breaking the rules. Fact.
Again as pointed out, the rent-a-mod rule I did break, but I argue that that rule shouldn't exist. As for spam, I still argue that it wasn't spam, at least not more than the rest of the posts in the thread were. So if their spam is perfectly alright, what's wrong with mine? If I'm not allowed to point out that the thread has degenerated to spam then how do you image the issue to be solved? PM a mod? If I, or anyone else for that matter, would PM a mod for every issue on the forum I'm pretty sure the number of mods would triple. Pointing out that the thread has turned into spam is an effective way to improve it if enough people agree and actually do something about it.
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  #49 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 09:11 AM
Tiroth United Kingdom Tiroth is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by andi View Post
And so I ask the question - is the point of deleting a post really to completely get rid of it?
It is as far as I'm concerned. Other people may feel differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andi View Post
I, and every other mod on the site, used to copy the offensive parts of every deleted post to explain what rules were broken and thus why posts were deleted.

Deleting posts do nothing if you don't explain why they were deleted, and you can't explain why they were deleted unless you have an example to back them up. And making it optional for people to view deleted posts and creating a deletion/infraction system based upon "replying to a rule-breaking flame in a deleted post" rule or something would be a perfectly effective system instead. :3

The point of deletion, I (and most people) always thought, was to show mod disapproval and prevent an escalation of flaming and rule-breaking that tends to happen when one person starts being a jerk. This system would do that, by showing that a post is deleted and why and preventing people from replying to those sub-par posts, and would also serve to educate anyone as to what sort of behavior is acceptable and unacceptable on the site. :3

:3 I think it would work and be wonderful, but I can understand that the first idea (Kit's) would be more useful and easier to implement at first. I don't think it would solve all of the issues fully like an optionally-censored system would, but it would certainly accomplish a lot. :3
It would not solve any issues whatsoever. In fact, deleting posts would also solve no issues whatsoever in that situation. To begin with, you said that it would prevent people from replying to "deleted" posts - how, exactly, would it do this? Anyone can see them. If they wanted to reply to them, we certainly couldn't stop them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_Predator View Post
Being able to see who deleted the post and why would still get rid of the post and give an explanation to the one whose post has been deleted. Problem solved.
Being able to see that a post has been deleted and the reason - that might work. I wouldn't support it, but it might do some good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by the_Predator View Post
Again as pointed out, the rent-a-mod rule I did break, but I argue that that rule shouldn't exist. As for spam, I still argue that it wasn't spam, at least not more than the rest of the posts in the thread were. So if their spam is perfectly alright, what's wrong with mine? If I'm not allowed to point out that the thread has degenerated to spam then how do you image the issue to be solved? PM a mod? If I, or anyone else for that matter, would PM a mod for every issue on the forum I'm pretty sure the number of mods would triple. Pointing out that the thread has turned into spam is an effective way to improve it if enough people agree and actually do something about it.
1) No, you may not re-write the rules. Problem solved.

2) We would much prefer it if you did PM a mod with any problems you see. In fact, until you start doing that, you really have no grounds to complain.
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  #50 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 09:13 AM
John John is a male Canada John is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_Predator View Post
Let me put this as clearly and as calmly as possible...

I have stated my opinion on several threads here on the forum - Namely http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/...me-thread.html and Half-believers

I posted the following image in my reply:



Those posts were labeled as unjustified and "spam". Here's the reason why that's not the case:

[12:30:14] <+Cody> you're driving the threads offtopic and making posts with nothing but "you fail" pictures int hem
[12:31:03] <%child_Predator> No, I'm posting a "Thread Failed" image in posts which are already derailed and don't contribute anything to the boards. I'm posting a picture because it's a stronger message than words alone.

It is more than obvious that both of the threads I listed already boiled down to pointless spamming and it's MORE than ****ing obvious.
Indeed at least one of them had.

However, that doesn't make your post any less spam, and since getting rid of the spam in the half-belief one would be roughly equivalent to amputating someone's leg at the neck and there was still some actual discussion going on most of the thread was left intact.

Quote:
So what was my crime again? Pointing out that the thread turned down to spam?
Yep.

Quote:
Oh no wait! It was... BEING HONEST AND DIRECT! HOLY ****!

AND ALL MY POSTS WERE DELETED!
No, you were being rude and demeaning while rent-a-modding in a thread that you had no stake in.

See, I could understand it if you'd been the OP, or had posted before the spam started, but you hadn't. You just walked in, posted your pic, and left.

Quote:
I was openly attacked by self-proclaimed forum police and self righteous crusader Anime_Queen. It wasn't provoked, it was a direct attack and insults. And in the end I turn out to be the bad guy, my posts deleted and threats of infractions. I mean what the ****ing ****?
I'm not overly surprised you got an infraction for breaking the rules, why are you?

Quote:
Mods here have a problem with people criticizing them. Major problems at that.
For the love of...

I think I need to change my signature. In it I shall put one of my many indignant speeches about how ZU runs on feedback to the mod team and the proper way to go about contacting us.

By way of example: If you get arrested by the police for what you think is an invalid reason there are ways to get out of that, but you have to wait until your trial.

In your case the police came up, said "come with us", and you proceeded to punch them in the face and run away, and then complain that they don't let you defend your innocence.

Quote:
Deleting posts, hiding the drama... MAKE A SEPARATE FORUM WHERE YOU'LL MOVE THE FORUM DRAMA SO PEOPLE CAN SEE WHICH FORUM MEMBERS ARE IDIOTS!
I do agree that people should, at the very least, be able to see that there are deleted posts present. However, I'm not sure that I agree with making every deleted post visible to everyone, quite a few of them are deleted because they contain content that we don't want on ZU.

In addition, you can ask any mod with power over that section and they can give you a complete quote of any deleted post.

Quote:
Isn't that an AWESOME idea? You'd have the proper people respected in the forum and the ones that deserve to be kicked and beaten to a pulp would get the shame they deserve.
Ah, see, that's another thing: I don't accept "trial by media". If a mod decides that someone's post being deleted is sufficient punishment then that's all that happens and that's the end of it. No need to put the post in a nice glass case and have everyone laugh at the member.

Quote:
Hiding drama and failure is just a sign of insecurity.
No, it's a way to keep the forum running. You should know just how easily drama gets out of control here, deleting posts is one way to limit that, since then you don't get hangers-on showing up and restarting the fight after it's over. By putting the posts on display you lose that, and the drama fights last longer.

Quote:
And if this thread gets deleted / locked or I get infracted over it, then it's more than enough proof that the mods suck.

(Of course there are exceptions, Cody being the only one I can think of)
Ye gods, and here I go repeating myself, again:

We will not infract you for expressing your honest opinion of the staff team, provided you can at least be a bit civil about it.

To my knowledge the only time someone's gotten in trouble for questioning us was when a member started making threads insisting that I was a member of the KKK because she didn't like that I was deleting some of her posts.




Anyways, I do agree that everyone should be able to see that posts have been deleted, and if we implement that then people seeing the reason becomes much easier. (Rather than my having to send a PM to every person who has a post deleted I just fill in a couple of text fields, takes roughly 1/60th the amount of time.) which would, hopefully, solve most of the problems.


Though, once again, if you want to know why a post is deleted and no one has told you you can just ask a mod in a PM. It's reasonably quick and completely painless.
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  #51 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 09:13 AM
the_Predator the_Predator is a male Bosnia the_Predator is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

Quote:
1) No, you may not re-write the rules. Problem solved.
But I may suggest a correction, which is what I'm doing.
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  #52 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 09:15 AM
Hazz Hazz is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

uh-oh. gdwarf is here! and he's multiquoting!

bail out!
  #53 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 09:17 AM
andi andi is a female United States andi is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiroth View Post
It would not solve any issues whatsoever. In fact, deleting posts would also solve no issues whatsoever in that situation. To begin with, you said that it would prevent people from replying to "deleted" posts - how, exactly, would it do this? Anyone can see them. If they wanted to reply to them, we certainly couldn't stop them.
Of course you could. Simply make it an infractable offense to respond to deleted posts and enforce it, and all responses from deleted posts will eventually stop. :3

Quote:
Being able to see that a post has been deleted and the reason - that might work. I wouldn't support it, but it might do some good.
:3 It would do loads of good, I think, and always did in the past with the way we had. We would sometimes repost deleted posts and entire two-page arguments word-for-word and then delete the original posts so that the main punishments were (1) the insult/stat hit that came with a lost post and (2) permanent proof of your idiocy and douchebaggery in the topic for all to see if they wished. :3

It wasn't just educational, but a very good form of punishment too. Honestly, under this system (Even when the population of ZU was around current stats), we had far less work to do when it actually came down to the effort of modding. People would, in essence, start to police their own behavior and learn to not say stuff that would get their posts deleted or draw mod attention to themselves.
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  #54 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 09:20 AM
Tiroth United Kingdom Tiroth is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by andi View Post
Of course you could. Simply make it an infractable offense to respond to deleted posts and enforce it, and all responses from deleted posts will eventually stop. :3
I'll have to disagree. We infract people for flaming, but it happens anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andi View Post
:3 It would do loads of good, I think, and always did in the past with the way we had. We would sometimes repost deleted posts and entire two-page arguments word-for-word and then delete the original posts so that the main punishments were (1) the insult/stat hit that came with a lost post and (2) permanent proof of your idiocy and douchebaggery in the topic for all to see if they wished. :3
I personally don't think that would work these days, but if enough mods agree with you, we can at least discuss it.
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  #55 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 09:24 AM
the_Predator the_Predator is a male Bosnia the_Predator is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by andi View Post
It would do loads of good, I think, and always did in the past with the way we had. We would sometimes repost deleted posts and entire two-page arguments word-for-word and then delete the original posts so that the main punishments were (1) the insult/stat hit that came with a lost post and (2) permanent proof of your idiocy and douchebaggery in the topic for all to see if they wished. :3

It wasn't just educational, but a very good form of punishment too. Honestly, under this system (Even when the population of ZU was around current stats), we had far less work to do when it actually came down to the effort of modding. People would, in essence, start to police their own behavior and learn to not say stuff that would get their posts deleted or draw mod attention to themselves.
This woman speaks the truth. Listen to her.

Quote:
I personally don't think that would work these days, but if enough mods agree with you, we can at least discuss it.
I don't see why it wouldn't work. The community has softened up over the years, doesn't mean it isn't possible to toughen it up a bit.
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  #56 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 09:24 AM
Kitsuné Kitsuné is a male United Kingdom Kitsuné is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

Andi, discussion will continue that way--I reiterate my earlier idea; members can see the "Your Message Has Been Deleted By ___" message, along with a "Reason: Your message was spam" message along the bottom. Members could then directly PM the mod, and things could be resolved, maybe even resulting in the message being re-stated, and an apology from the mod if they made an error. It's saddening that everyone's first reaction is hostile, rather than curious. I can remember a few times when the Mod was flamed, but convinced--the infraction was taken away, but a ban was put in place because of the way the member spoke to the mod. :<
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  #57 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-27-2008, 09:27 AM
andi andi is a female United States andi is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

The main issue with it before, and why most new mods weren't trained or forced to do it over time. was that there was no multi-deletion or multi-quoting of posts. There was no automation - you had to handle each post one at a time and couldn't leave any reasons for anything if you deleted a post. A post was simply *gone* from all except the back lots of the server if it was deleted, and we didn't have the technology to ever think of implementing a system where non-admins could see deleted posts and where you could even, dare i say it, come up with a way to automate the deletion process like you can now with the new versions of vB. :3 It could take hours of moderation to solve a few weird issues that came up, but those hours of invested time usually prevented a lot of minor issues that came up. In essence, the former system was a form of the Broken Window system used by Mayor Guliani of New York City which seriously helped to clean up a city that used to be known as the a**hole of the US.

If you wanted to take this idea steps and steps further, you could even create an auto-deletion, email, pm, and educational system. Simply delete a post, select some automated "reasons this post is deleted" from a dropdown menu on the side (and make it so you can flag multiple ones), and click enter - the post can then be deleted but kept on archive for anyone to see, the reasons and rule that explain the rule that are selected from the dropdown menu can be posted, the person can be sent a PM linking back to their original post and giving them the same reasons and rule citation, and you can email them too for good measure.

:3 It'd be so easy to do even something that extravagant, all you have to do is go through the effort to find a program to do it. And that would be a huge win-win situation. The mods get to do more with less effort, the forum posters get more feedback, and everybody comes ahead in the game for it. :3
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Old 08-27-2008, 09:27 AM
Anime_Queen Anime_Queen is a female United Kingdom Anime_Queen is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kits
It's saddening that everyone's first reaction is hostile, rather than curious. I can remember a few times when the Mod was flamed, but convinced--the infraction was taken away, but a ban was put in place because of the way the member spoke to the mod. :<
^ *lAUGhs*! xDDD


andi - staff boards, hun. Join the discussion.,
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Old 08-27-2008, 09:29 AM
the_Predator the_Predator is a male Bosnia the_Predator is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

And Andi gets to overwhore the :3 smiley even more.
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**** the internet and just go straight for the big cheese- the universe. He [the_Predator] is, in fact, the sole reason other intelligent life refuses to contact us.
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Old 08-27-2008, 09:31 AM
Anime_Queen Anime_Queen is a female United Kingdom Anime_Queen is offline
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Re: This site needs a serious change of moderation

That's her way of making sure her tone comes over as soft, even when she's about to uppercut someone :>
in fact, they get uppercutted, but still feel loved, in the process <333



also, to expand on GDwarf's idea - the only good compromise is for people to be able to view their OWN deleted posts. Not otehrs' as well.
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