[Feedback] This site needs a serious change of moderation

Originally Posted by the_Predator

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. "Join the already existing spamming and pretend that everything is ok?

You are correct, that would just make things worse. However, so does posting that picture.

Originally Posted by the_Predator

sigh... How much clearer can I get? Mod elitism = The thing where mods think they're better than the rest of the members. And most of them do. I thought you'd all learn a lesson after Gerudo (Where is he nowadays anyway?) and his self righteous crusade bull****. Deleting threads, locking threads and giving infractions, all without explanation most of the time. I was handed an infraction for what later turned out to be completely justified and not against the rules (He even admitted) and of course to preserve his ego the mod that handed it to me didn't revoke it.

One mod makes a mistake and doesn't reverse it? Fine - tell another mod and let us handle it. How many times do we have to tell people that before they get the picture? -_-;

As for the lack of explanations, yes, I'm sometimes as guilty of that as the next mod. I make the mistake of thinking it's obvious. If you ever have a problem with one of my decisions, feel free to PM me and ask. I will attempt to explain. You may not like the explanation, but I will.

Originally Posted by the_Predator

So deleting post doesn't count as covering up the drama? Let's all just be happy and pretend that everything is ok.

It looked like you were referring exclusively to locking threads with that point. I apologise for the misunderstanding.

However, you seem to be assuming that we delete posts for the sole purpose of covering up the fact that they exist. We don't. Posts are deleted because we do not want posts like that on ZU. Keeping them would be more trouble than it's worth.

Originally Posted by the_Predator

It's not my decision but I sure as hell can say my opinion. And the way I say it, as long as it doesn't break any rules is my to choose too.

Yes, you may voice your opinion. By all means, do so. The problem is that voicing your opinion by posting that image is breaking two separate rules - spam and rent-a-mod. Hence, it gets deleted, and any mod would be well within their rights to infract you for repeat offences.

EDIT: @the next two posts - *smacks head against the wall* You're not helping.

EDIT 2: Okay, one got deleted. Just the next one, then.

um...the thing is, it sounds like the mods where actually doing their jobs properly...

The way I look at it, you where breaking two rules from those thread failed images, rent-a-modding and spamming, so you can't complain...it's not just you they would 'pick on' it's everyone else too...so I think i'm right in posting this



Think about it before you moan about it, you look like a pillock otherwise

Originally Posted by the_Predator

So deleting post doesn't count as covering up the drama? Let's all just be happy and pretend that everything is ok.

It isn't 'covering up drama'. The posts are pretty much a waste of space. Anyone looking over the thread doesn't need to see spam or huge arguments covering it. And like Tiroth said, we don't want posts like that staying on ZU. There's no need for them, so why should they be left? It's just cleaning out the thread.

Some of what I've seen GDwarf say has actually enlightened me; if people couldn't discuss religion, then I feel I'd be a different person. : /

People don't need to discuss their beliefs, but whining at people who is not only annoying, but a tad arrogant. : / I've got nothing personal against you, Pred, but I simply have to disagree with you on this one.

Originally Posted by Panique

It isn't 'covering up drama'. The posts are pretty much a waste of space. Anyone looking over the thread doesn't need to see spam or huge arguments covering it. And like Tiroth said, we don't want posts like that staying on ZU. There's no need for them, so why should they be left? It's just cleaning out the thread.

You're the one to talk.
You deleted all the discussion in the SotW discussion thread. Technically the conversation between Asci and Stony was a discussion about the SotW competition and as much drama as it contained it was a valid discussion not breaking the rules. Note that you said "Anyone looking over the thread"... Right, so what would you be looking for in a "discussion" thread other than "discussion"?


EDIT: Also, people still seem to misunderstand that I was spamming by posting that image. As said many times before that is not true. I cannot emphasize it enough. Read first, post later. That image is there to present a message. "This thread has degenerated to spam and isn't productive anymore. It should be closed."

Ain't my issue that most people here don't seem to be able to grasp subtle points or read between the lines.

Something that wasn't borderline insults flying back and forth?

Pred, if you seriously think that mod elitism is a serious problem, would you mind giving us some examples to work with? Because I'm coming up blank here.

EDIT: Just read your edit - and it is spam. Unless you happen to be posting an art thread or in the Scrapbook, a single post and maybe one line of text is generally considered spam. It is not a relevant post. But even if you discount that, it's rent-a-modding, and so is still breaking the rules.

EDIT 2: @geomiester: Once again, not helping - and you're wrong anyway.

Originally Posted by the_Predator

You deleted all the discussion in the SotW discussion thread. Technically the conversation between Asci and Stony was a discussion about the SotW competition and as much drama as it contained it was a valid discussion not breaking the rules. Note that you said "Anyone looking over the thread"... Right, so what would you be looking for in a "discussion" thread other than "discussion"?

You'd be looking for a discussion, not petty insults tossed back and forth between two people.

Originally Posted by the_Predator

EDIT: Also, people still seem to misunderstand that I was spamming by posting that image. As said many times before that is not true. I cannot emphasize it enough. Read first, post later. That image is there to present a message. "This thread has degenerated to spam and isn't productive anymore. It should be closed."

Ain't my issue that most people here don't seem to be able to grasp subtle points or read between the lines.

Okay, the thing is you assumed the Mods would have a sense of humour...you should never do that, because you will find they don't...they probably never will.
In fact, I think it would be better recieved if you posted "This thread has degenerated to spam and isn't productive anymore. It should be closed." instead of the image...

"Borderline insults flying back and forth" still aren't insults. Simply telling them to stop, infracting them, locking the thread, all that is possible, but deleting it was too extreme. It wasn't against the rules, they weren't direct insults AND it was a discussion. At the end of the day it was a discussion.

Examples? I think Gerudo is all the examples you'll ever need compacted in one single person for your convenience.

Having my posts in the SD forum deleted today (The ones in which I was actually presenting my points and opinions) without any explanation, warning or reason also came over as pretty elitistic to me. It might not be the reason why it happened but why should I be left wondering?

Okay, the thing is you assumed the Mods would have a sense of humour...you should never do that, because you will find they don't...they probably never will.

Another reason why they should be changed.

In fact, I think it would be better recieved if you posted "This thread has degenerated to spam and isn't productive anymore. It should be closed." instead of the image...

I only said it 5000 times by now but I suppose you still don't get it so let me repeat: Posting an image carries a stronger message than text alone. I'll even spoon feed it - You have a thread full of text spam. 99% of intelligent people won't read any of it. So in order to get someone's attention your message must have more impact than the rest. Hence the image. Also, it's funny.

Originally Posted by Tiroth

EDIT 2: @geomiester: Once again, not helping - and you're wrong anyway.

Okay, sorry, I will stop and go do somthing productive, this seems to be a roundabout situation anyway.

Good luck sorting this out...and then some more

EDIT: (sorry, i just need to address this point in all politeness)

Originally Posted by the_Predator

Also, it's funny.

okay, yeah, thats true.

But I guess it is funny at first, but the more you kept doing it, the less funny it gets.

Alot like family guy...fa-shwing!

Originally Posted by the_Predator

"Borderline insults flying back and forth" still aren't insults. Simply telling them to stop, infracting them, locking the thread, all that is possible, but deleting it was too extreme. It wasn't against the rules, they weren't direct insults AND it was a discussion. At the end of the day it was a discussion.

Having read through the "discussion" myself, I have to disagree. Pani was well within her rights to delete it.

Originally Posted by the_Predator

Examples? I think Gerudo is all the examples you'll ever need compacted in one single person for your convenience.

Yeah, Gerudo kinda isn't on the mod team anymore. Could we have some examples that are actually relevant?

Originally Posted by the_Predator

Having my posts in the SD forum deleted today (The ones in which I was actually presenting my points and opinions) without any explanation, warning or reason also came over as pretty elitistic to me. It might not be the reason why it happened but why should I be left wondering?

The posts I deleted were essentially yourself and Anime_Queen arguing, plus the one pic/one line spam post. Was there anything else?

Originally Posted by the_Predator

That image is there to present a message. "This thread has degenerated to spam and isn't productive anymore. It should be closed."

Ah, but the problem is, anyone who said "This thread has degenerated to spam and isn't productive anymore, it should be closed" inside the thread would be considered rent-a-modding. The correct thing to do would be to tell a mod that you think it should be closed, rather than trying to announce the thread closed while having no power to do so.

It's like a family. If your brother is always eating all the chocolates before you can get to them, you do not have the authority to spank him for it, or to tell him to go to his room. What you can do, however, is tell your parents that there is something wrong and they can deal it it.


tl;dr version - if you see a thread that should be locked, bug the nearest mod on IRC.

Cody spanks his brother.

He also needs to come in IRC more, because sea doesn't take orders.

Originally Posted by Cody

Ah, but the problem is, anyone who said "This thread has degenerated to spam and isn't productive anymore, it should be closed" inside the thread would be considered rent-a-modding. The correct thing to do would be to tell a mod that you think it should be closed, rather than trying to announce the thread closed while having no power to do so.

It's like a family. If your brother is always eating all the chocolates before you can get to them, you do not have the authority to spank him for it, or to tell him to go to his room. What you can do, however, is tell your parents that there is something wrong and they can deal it it.

Yeah, yeah, not having rent-a-modding works fine, but in exchange you have to have actually *modding* from the *mods*.

And honestly, I don't see how you can mod properly when you simply delete posts and never provide feedback to the community on why they were deleted.

If the parents don't punish your brother or you don't find out about it, people end up feeling like they have to do it themselves.

This is an issue of bad modding and pissed-off forum members that has been building up for a while. You really should address Pred's main concern, a seriously important one that he's mentioned repeatedly but which nobody has really responded to.

Having my posts in the SD forum deleted today (The ones in which I was actually presenting my points and opinions) without any explanation, warning or reason also came over as pretty elitistic to me. It might not be the reason why it happened but why should I be left wondering?

And honestly, why should he have to make this topic to get the answer to this question? And what do you expect to happen when so many dozens of members who get hundreds of posts a day deleted don't get the simple answers to these questions as well?

The mods (you guise) are just creating more work for yourselves by not providing simple feedback on when and why you delete a large number of posts. Combining deleted posts into one thread and explaining what happened and why not only provides feedback to everyone whose posts were deleted, but it provides feedback to the rest of the community and certainly allows people to understand the behavior of those around them better. If your main reason to delete posts, as pani seems to claim, is to save space and not clutter up the topic, then that would be a very simple way to do that and *not* shoot yourself in the foot when it comes to the modding you should be doing.

andi - okay, good point.

I agree that there should be mUCH better feedback to members as to why their posts have been deleted. If there was a mass-post deletion, a post afterwards to say: deleted a bunch of posts because etc etc etc would be a good idea.

thing is, though, I'm sure that both Pred and I realised that we shouldn't have started a bickerfest in the SD thread, and that, thus, they deserved deletion. I'm sure that a LOT of people know when they've really posted something daft that they shouldn't have. I own up to it - yes, I kept arguing with Pred and should probably have taken it to PM instead. I made a mistake, I posted abrasively - I apologise even to Preds.


The main problem HERE, andi, which you seem to be overlooking is that Pred is REFUSING to acknowledge that posting a simple picture of "thread failed" is spam. Perhaps you can step in and *tRY* to convince him that it is.
Even though he has been told rePEATEDly why they were deleted, he's STILL arguing that it wasn't spam and rent-a-modding.

How can you defend that?
What do you do in this instance?
Change the rules to fit their definition of "spam"?

Originally Posted by Tiroth

Having read through the "discussion" myself, I have to disagree. Pani was well within her rights to delete it.

I wonder on what base that was. There ought to be rules as to when something should be deleted and I am very confident that discussion doesn't break said rules.

Originally Posted by Tiroth

Yeah, Gerudo kinda isn't on the mod team anymore. Could we have some examples that are actually relevant?

Ah yes, but Gerudo's post count is still 3000+ yet searching for his posts only brings back 47 results, and all his posts as well as the account were missing a while back. I was browsing the forum and saw a lot of his threads and posts missing. Thinking "holy **** somebody deleted gerudo's posts? Hallelujah!" I tried finding some more drama of his to report or just to have fun with him just to notice that none of his posts or threads were there. In fact, he wasn't on the members list at all. This all combined with his ego and all the ZU hackings makes me wonder whether or not removing him from his staff position was the decision of the higher staff or did he just run off angry.

Originally Posted by Tiroth

The posts I deleted were essentially yourself and Anime_Queen arguing, plus the one pic/one line spam post. Was there anything else?

Yes but that's not relevant anymore. Except for the fact that it proves that you ought to read before you delete.

EDIT: Also about the rent-a-mod thing... What kind of stupid rule is that? If you're pissed off to see people saying "this needs to be closed" rest assured that it isn't nearly as annoying as coming into a thread and finding half your posts missing without any explanation.
Besides, why should it be wrong for upright forum members with common sense to step in and say "Hey! This thread is ****! Get it back on track or it will be locked!"? Such things should be ENCOURAGED so eventually you'd have a more self-sustaining community rather than depend on the more-often-than-not biased judgment of mods.

Originally Posted by andi

Yeah, yeah, not having rent-a-modding works fine, but in exchange you have to have actually *modding* from the *mods*.

Which, in turn, requires some co-operation from the normal members. Contrary to popular belief, I am not going to read a thread I have no interest in on the off-chance that someone will break the rules. I need to be told it's happened.

Originally Posted by andi

And honestly, I don't see how you can mod properly when you simply delete posts and never provide feedback to the community on why they were deleted.

I've already mentioned this; I normally feel that it's blatantly obvious to those who saw the posts, and that anyone who didn't doesn't need to know. Sometimes, I'm wrong. In either situation, I will offer an explanation if I am asked for one - politely.

Originally Posted by andi

This is an issue of bad modding and pissed-off forum members that has been building up for a while. You really should address Pred's main concern, a seriously important one that he's mentioned repeatedly but which nobody has really responded to.

That doesn't look like it was his main concern to me, but regardless - I thought it would be obvious. I deleted three of Pred's posts, and only one of them was even remotely connected to the topic. That one, however, was primarily arguing with Asia, and so I deleted. Pred then re-posted the point he had made, and I left it alone.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Anime_Queen

thing is, though, I'm sure that both Pred and I realised that we shouldn't have started a bickerfest in the SD thread, and that, thus, they deserved deletion. I'm sure that a LOT of people know when they've really posted something daft that they shouldn't have. I own up to it - yes, I kept arguing with Pred and should probably have taken it to PM instead. I made a mistake, I posted abrasively - I apologise even to Preds.

Well, I'm glad you understand what I was trying to say now. ^_^

Originally Posted by the_Predator

I wonder on what base that was. There ought to be rules as to when something should be deleted and I am very confident that discussion doesn't break said rules.

Oh, it broke the rules alright. Trust me on that one. *mod-elitism*

Originally Posted by the_Predator

Ah yes, but Gerudo's post count is still 3000+ yet searching for his posts only brings back 47 results, and all his posts as well as the account were missing a while back. I was browsing the forum and saw a lot of his threads and posts missing. Thinking "holy **** somebody deleted gerudo's posts? Hallelujah!" I tried finding some more drama of his to report or just to have fun with him just to notice that none of his posts or threads were there. In fact, he wasn't on the members list at all. This all combined with his ego and all the ZU hackings makes me wonder whether or not removing him from his staff position was the decision of the higher staff or did he just run off angry.

Please do not draw conclusions when you don't actually know what happened. Gerudo had a rather interesting time running up to his departure from the mod team.

And how exactly are Gerudo's antics relevant to the current mod team when he isn't on it? Could we try something that we have done?

Originally Posted by the_Predator

Yes but that's not relevant anymore. Except for the fact that it proves that you ought to read before you delete.

Fine. What is relelvant?

Originally Posted by the_Predator

EDIT: Also about the rent-a-mod thing... What kind of stupid rule is that? If you're pissed off to see people saying "this needs to be closed" rest assured that it isn't nearly as annoying as coming into a thread and finding half your posts missing without any explanation.
Besides, why should it be wrong for upright forum members with common sense to step in and say "Hey! This thread is ****! Get it back on track or it will be locked!"? Such things should be ENCOURAGED so eventually you'd have a more self-sustaining community rather than depend on the more-often-than-not biased judgment of mods.

The problem is that you can't do anything about those threads. If you post telling everyone to get back on track, then that's nothing better than spam - unless, of course, you actually have something relevant to the discussion as well, which we don't mind.

That's a great idea, actually, andi--just to build on it: what if members could see their own deleted posts? (not the actual post, but the message site staff and retired staff see) I'm 90% sure that when a mod deletes a post, it has a reason box, like it has when you delete your own post, or edit. Mods should leave a comment there as to why they've deleted the post; a sentence of explanation to save a thread of drama. :>

When I say "should", I mean "make it obligatory".

Originally Posted by the_Predator

Ah yes, but Gerudo's post count is still 3000+ yet searching for his posts only brings back 47 results, and all his posts as well as the account were missing a while back. I was browsing the forum and saw a lot of his threads and posts missing. Thinking "holy **** somebody deleted gerudo's posts? Hallelujah!" I tried finding some more drama of his to report or just to have fun with him just to notice that none of his posts or threads were there. In fact, he wasn't on the members list at all. This all combined with his ego and all the ZU hackings makes me wonder whether or not removing him from his staff position was the decision of the higher staff or did he just run off angry.

Gerudo's account mysteriously disappeared completely a while back; and no explanation had been found, even way before he was removed from the mod team. This new account is actually his new "dnice" account, which he then changed his name back to.

Also, we're saying it's silly to quote examples from gerudo NOW to try and justify claims against the mod team because he was removed by staff. Not just normal demotion - but actual complete removal. Because it wasn't deemed fit that he SHOuld represent staff. Therefore, using him as an argument as to why staff sucks now is a more than a bit outdated.

There ought to be rules as to when something should be deleted and I am very confident that discussion doesn't break said rules.

There ARE rules.
Spam and rent-a-modding, amazingly enough, are AGAINST the rules.
Only, you're arguing against how your spam and rent-a-modding isn't spam and rent-amodding.
You're refusing to abide by the rules, then are surprised and angry when a post gets deleted.

I deleted three of Pred's posts, and only one of them was even remotely connected to the topic. That one, however, was primarily arguing with Asia, and so I deleted. Pred then re-posted the point he had made, and I left it alone.

Yes that is completely true. But as you might notice now that same thread has continued on with simply posting the results from that silly online test. If my and Asia's discussion had been left in a real discussion would spark and even though it might start rough it would clear out eventually. Like this you just have another spam topic.