[Discussion] Inclusion of other mediums in the Timeline

[MDK]

I haven't really been pulling my weight around here for the last while, and for that I apologise. I'm trying to get through my Bomber projects right now, since I have the time. Anyway, in a feeble attempt to get closer to my article/discussion quota, I pose the following question.

"Should the Zelda titles that did not reach the western world be incorporated into the Timeline?"

Obviously, this would include the three BS titles and the DS Tingle RPG, and for the sake of argument, I'll throw in the hugely overlooked CD-i titles and the Game'n'Watch game. This leaves us with:

• Zelda no Densetsu BS
• Kamigami no Triforce BS
• Kodai no Sekiban
• Mogitate Tingle no Barairo Rupee Land
• The Wand of Gamelon
• The Face of Evil
• Zelda's Adventure
• The Legend of Zelda Game'n'Watch

I raise this topic because certain details from the BS remake of LOZ is used to explain certain continuity points, and apparently, Tingle RPG explains the so-called 'Legend of the Fairy' in The Wind Waker.

Basically, should we include any of them, and if so, which ones?

Discuss.

[Mr. Lexxi Aileron]

BS LoZ didn't, as far as I saw, explain any storyline details.

BS Zelda 2 cleared up LA's place in the timeline by referencing Link's journey in that game (apparently), and depicted Ganon being revived in the Dark World. Since (or, rather, if) this event is never referenced in any other title, I would say that BS Zelda 2 accomplishes nothing timeline-wise aside from clarifying this. Were TP not referenced exclusively with respect to OoT regarding its placement, this might explain a certain cryptic quote within TP describing Ganon as having already "descended and been reborn". However, with references to a Hero who saved Hyrule abundant within TP, perhaps that Hero is ALttP's hero anyway. Just a thought.

[MDK]

There's only one minor detail in BS LOZ to which people give any significance - Ganon is carrying a trident.

An interesting suggestion indeed, Lex. I'd like to see that one explored a little more.

Since I'm posting, I think I speak on behalf of everyone when I say that the CD-i should be omitted entirely, having no Nintendo involvement, and just being generally terrible games. Just thought I'd throw them into the mix, since they seemed relevant.

[Uncle Meat]

Hear hear. The CD-i games bring nothing to the timeline what so ever. They don't make references to any other game and no other title references them. They were created by one of the worst videogame companies ever and only serve as reminder of what not to do with a succesful game licence.

Ganon does indeed wield a trident in the BS Zelda. The funny thing is that in the original LoZ concept art Ganon has a trident in one of the pictures. Whether or not this was an original developer intention which just didn't make it into the final game is not clear. In either case it's a connection that is too strong to just disregard as a coincidence.

[MDK]

Well then, we're left with Game'n'Watch and Tingle RPG. I for one have never been at home with the idea of Tingle having any impact or relevance to continuity. As for Game'n'Watch, I have no clue. Any ideas people?

[Uncle Meat]

Well, there is hardly any plot to either the Zelda Game Watch or the Zelda Game & Watch. Link just kills dragons with a tomahawk to save Zelda. They were based on the original two games and back then there were no multiple links, which automatically makes them sequels to LoZ and AoL. They were basically just Zelda merchandise and didn't have any impact on the timeline. The developers of future Zelda titles have also completely ignored them which means that they were never meant to be nothing but merchandise. In my opinion the same applies to Tingle RPG. We can use it to better understand Tingle, but that shouldn't be something to base a theory on.

[Mr. Lexxi Aileron]

The G&W games end just as they began, except with some dead dragons. They do nothing to the timeline, positive or negative. Tingle RPG, on the other hand, gives some information pertaining to the Deku Tree, the Subrosans, and the Pirates from Oracles, although I can't say to what capacity.

[Master of ALttP]

Furthermore, the two BS Zelda games didn't feature Link, or any Zelda character, as the main character. You played as, what I believe was, the mascot of the Satellaview system which the games were exclusive for. As for Tingle RPG, it can explain Tingle's history and how it is that he can possibly be in games set centuries apart, and even why he charges such a high price to decipher sea charts.

Edit: On the topic of other mediums, there are also a few Zelda mangas which have been produced over the years. Most just rehash a game's story with slight differences, whereas others practically reinvent the story. In the case of the Four Swords manga, it actually creates a story. Depending on what the mangas say and how they depict things should be used to determine how accurate they are at further developing the game's story. However, there is one thing from the Four Swords manga that I wish to ask. Can we all agree that each Link (Green, Red, Blue, and Purple) has a different personality?

[Uncle Meat]

To my understanding the four Sword multiplies Link into four identical characters who have to have different coloured clothes for gameplay reasons. I don't see why would the sword create new personalities for these clones of Link. For the sake of the manga it makes sense to have differing personalities for the Links because otherwise the story would be quite boring. This is not the case with the games however.

And while we are on the subject: Does anyone think the old tv show is worth considering as an official source of information?

[the_Predator]

Firstly, I would totally discard the CD-i games because of already stated reasons. Also as already said the G&W game even if had significance it doesn't change anything.
The Tingle RPG on the other hand is different. It shows a huge background of a specific LoZ character and explains his, mostly controversial, appearance in the games.
I'll be honest, I can't say for the BS games as this is the first time I heard of them...
The mangas as far as I know don't have anything to do with the original plot but I can't say for sure as I only read the OoT and MM one. There is one thing though.. The story of MM's creation in the MM manga. Personally I know a few people who hold it to be canon but to me that is the very proof that nothing in the mangas can be take canon as there is enough evidence that covers MM's creation.

Also you forgot the Zelda cartoons although I am pretty sure we can treat them like we treated the CD-i games.

@Uncle Meat - Ganon's trident in the original LoZ was an artist error, that's what I read somewhere. Not sure of the credibility though.

[MDK]

Originally Posted by the_Predator

@Uncle Meat - Ganon's trident in the original LoZ was an artist error, that's what I read somewhere. Not sure of the credibility though.

Interesting. Unfortunately, you'll need to cite the source for it to hold any water.

[the_Predator]

I know, but it has been a few years since I read it so you can consider it groundless as I can't find it.

[Mr. Lexxi Aileron]

The Trident in the LoZ art was an artistic interpretation released around the time of ALttP, IIRC. Or LA. Can't remember which. It was part of one of the strategy guides.

[MDK]

In which case it coincided with the release of a game in which Ganon did carry a Trident.

[silver arrow]

Originally Posted by Studebaker Hoch

Well, there is hardly any plot to either the Zelda Game Watch or the Zelda Game & Watch. Link just kills dragons with a tomahawk to save Zelda. They were based on the original two games and back then there were no multiple links, which automatically makes them sequels to LoZ and AoL. They were basically just Zelda merchandise and didn't have any impact on the timeline. The developers of future Zelda titles have also completely ignored them which means that they were never meant to be nothing but merchandise. In my opinion the same applies to Tingle RPG. We can use it to better understand Tingle, but that shouldn't be something to base a theory on.

Actually, the Nelsonic Zelda Game Watch IS LOZ. Or rather, a horrible port of it, but on the watch that I have it claims to be LOZ, but portable. Zelda Game & Watch is a sequel, where eight dragons have stolen the triforce and kidnapped Zelda. As far as I can see, there's no reason why it SHOULDN'T be included, though it effects nothing.
...been wanting to correct that game watch being a sequel thing for a while now.

[Uncle Meat]

Oh, my mistake, then. It seems that my sources weren't all that accurate.

In either case they feature LoZ link as the main character and have a minimal impact to the timeline.

[Rak]

So let me get this straight. The Loz Art that Uncle posted, according to Lex, was published around the time of ALttP, but in a ALttP(or LoZ?) player's guide? Wouldn't that make it ALttP art? I've seen arguments regarding that picture as "official art" before, and I'd like to get to the bottom of it. So, Uncle what site did you retrieve it from? Maybe we could get some more background on it. The trident's existence in LoZ has always been in question due to BS Zelda and that pic. Maybe we could draw a conclusion on the matter.

I would say no to CDi, game & watch, BS Zeldas and such just because I haven't played them, and probably will never be able to. We should only work with what we're presented with, or rather what we're supposed to be presented with. Officially, there are 13 main Zelda titles to be incorporated into a working and "cohesive" timeline. There's no need to blow that out of proportion.

I've found the manga to be beneficial for clarity's sake. I've looked at important background readings in TMC, and FS manga because it usually reads in a few more words than the in-game prologues. It would also be interesting to know to what extent those stories are official(being slapped the Nintendo official seal). Did actual Zelda game creators write the script for those manga, or did they just hand it off to a freelance artist and tell him to make sure Link doesn't appear to be a nancy(of which TMC Link utterly fails at)? Either way, major manga/game storlyine discrepancies prove the stuff isn't all that credible, where they occur. I still feel manga has its advantages for theorists though.

[Uncle Meat]

Originally Posted by Rak

So let me get this straight. The Loz Art that Uncle posted, according to Lex, was published around the time of ALttP, but in a ALttP(or LoZ?) player's guide? Wouldn't that make it ALttP art? I've seen arguments regarding that picture as "official art" before, and I'd like to get to the bottom of it. So, Uncle what site did you retrieve it from? Maybe we could get some more background on it. The trident's existence in LoZ has always been in question due to BS Zelda and that pic. Maybe we could draw a conclusion on the matter.

I gather that the guide was for ALttP, but it included the stories of both previous games. There is also artwork by the same artist for AoL. I got the picture from The Hylia's media gallery. If someone has a better understanding of these pictures or actual scans of whole pages from the guide, they would be much appreciated.

[Mr. Lexxi Aileron]

The player's guides, until OoT, all came with series synopsis in their introductions, and art to go with.