[Article] The Placement of TMC

In this article, I will be looking at all the evidence against a pre-OoT placement of TMC. My aim in this is to gather various types of evidence, and prove that not only is TMC not before OoT, but after TWW aswell. I will be looking at everything, from geography, to quotes, to enemies and will hopefully I'll be able to prove that TMC is not before OoT.

First, lets look at in game quotes. The most important thing to note is that every time the people are mentioned in TMC, they are referred to as humans, not Hylians:

"Once, humans and Picori shared that shrine as a meeting place." ~ King of Hyrule, TMC

"You humans call them the "Picori," but they refer to themselves as the Minish! Strange how, in the world of humans, only this forest has kept that name..." ~ Ezlo, TMC

"I gather it's been quite some time since they last saw a human..." ~ Ezlo, TMC

"Hm... I've never seen an outfit like that before. Are you a...human? Oh, my! It's been quite some time since any humans came here." ~ Festari, TMC

"In the meantime, you should track down the missing elements. One of them should be in the mine the humans dug." ~ Melari, TMC

"This must be what the humans who built this mine used to get around in here." ~ Ezlo, TMC

"I knew it was madness to risk our lives in that rickety human contraption!" ~ Ezlo, TMC

"It is the bridge between the Minish world and the human world." ~ Melari, TMC

"I know you can do it. After all, you made short work of that human mine." ~ Melari, TMC

"One day, Vaati took a hat I made for the humans -- my pride and joy." ~ Ezlo, TMC

"You know the legends, of course. The gifts the Picori gave the humans..." ~ Ezlo, TMC

"This is no good! No good at all! A human borrowed a book, and now none of us can get back to Elder Labrari!" ~ Town Minish, TMC

Although it cannot be proven whether the people are Hylian or human in TMC, judging from the other games, it is best to assume that the people are humans in TMC, since saying they are Hylians is much more of an assumption and has no evidence supporting it.


So we've established that the people of Hyrule in TMC were most probably human. So what about the state of Hyrule itself? Let's look at the account of the Fierce Wars that took place around a decade before OoT:

"Some time ago, before the King of Hyrule unified this country, there was a fierce war in our world. One day, to escape from the fires of the war, a Hylian mother and her baby boy entered this forbidden forest. The mother was gravely injured... Her only choice was to entrust the child to the Deku Tree, the guardian spirit of the forest. The Deku Tree could sense that this was a child of destiny, whose fate would affect the entire world, so he took him into the forest. After the mother passed away, the baby was raised as a Kokiri. And now, finally, the day of destiny has come!" ~ Great Deku Tree Sprout, OoT

Before the King of Hyrule unified this country. It doesn't say reunified, it just says unified, meaning that this was the first time that Hyrule had been united under one King. But in TMC, Hyrule is clearly united, and under the rule of a King aswell. How can this be so if TMC is before OoT?


Now, onto the races of Hyrule. Which races are present in TMC and OoT? Well, let's take a look:

The Minish Cap:
- Humans (most likely)
- Gorons
- Minish
- Wind Tribe

Ocarina of Time:
- Hylians
- Gorons
- Zoras
- Kokiri
- Gerudo

As you can see, the only race that appears in both are the Gorons, but I'm going to leave them till last for a good reason. Now, we've already established that we do not know for certain whether the people are Hylian or not in TMC, so we'll move on to the other races. If TMC is before OoT, where are the Zoras in TMC, and where did they come from in OoT? Clearly both they and their Domain have been around for a while in OoT, since the Zoras are a well established race that have strong connections with the Royal Family, plus they have their own patron deity and a temple where they go to worship (Water Temple). Yet in TMC there isn't a trace of their existance. No Zora's Domain, no Jabu-Jabu, no Water Temple and no Zoras. How is this possible if TMC is before OoT?

So what about the Kokiri and the Gerudo? Well, the Kokiri have obviously been around for a long time, since the Great Deku Tree created them, and we all know that the Great Deku Tree is extremely old:

Originally Posted by Great Deku Tree

In the vast, deep forest of Hyrule... Long have I served as the guardian spirit... I am known as the Deku Tree...

So if TMC is first, where are the Kokiri, and for that matter, the Great Deku Tree? They are nowhere to be found. How could this be if TMC is before OoT?

And what about the Gerudo? They've been in Hyrule for quite awhile too, since they have their own fortress, their own ancient temple and their own hidden treasures. So where are they in TMC, and for that matter, where do they live? Well, from comparing the TMC map to other maps from around its time (i.e. FSA and ALttP), we know that the swamp is in the middle of Hyrule, with a desert to the west of it. Since the swamp in TMC is in the west (rather, the south-west), and the first peak of Death Mountain (which at the time was called Mount Crenel) is also in the west (when it should be in the middle of the map), then we can come to the logical conclusion that we are not seeing all of Hyrule in TMC, and that there is the land that we are accustomed to seeing in the west in FSA and ALttP to the west of the game area in TMC. This makes it possible for the Gerudo to be around at the time of TMC, infact I'm almost certain of it, since they are in FSA. However, this does not prove either way whether or not TMC is or isn't before OoT.

Now. The Gorons. There is a reason I left them for last. In TMC, there are very few Gorons (eight, if I remember rightly), yet in OoT, the Gorons are a thriving race with their own city, mine and temple (Goron City, Dodongo's Cavern and the Fire Temple). So where are all these places in TMC? Non-existant, so we must assume that TMC is after OoT. And not only is it after OoT, there's evidence that it's after TWW aswell. In both TWW and TMC, there are very few Gorons left. The Gorons in TMC appear to be recovering from the extreme loss of their kind caused by a disastrous event, perhaps say, the Great Flood, so we can come to the logical conclusion that TMC is after TWW.


Another important thing to note is enemies, and when the events of the TMC BS took place. Here is the stained glass windows from the TMC introduction:











They show Moblins in their TWW form, suggesting that TMC is near TWW in the timeline. But more importantly, the windows show land-walking Octoroks. This has great significance because land-walking Octoroks did not develop until sometime after the Flood and TWW, since TWW is the last game to feature water-dwelling Octoroks. If land-walking Octoroks were around at the time of the Hero of Men, then the Hero of Men story happens after TWW, ergo, TMC is after TWW.


Another important thing to note is the lack of knowledge of the Triforce in TMC. Not only is it never mentioned once, it's never even mentioned by one of it's synonyms (power of the gods, golden power etc). The closest thing to a mention of the Triforce in TMC is a book entitled "Triumph Forks" in the library. This is a clear reference to TWW, and even in TWW, most people who had knowledge of such a thing called it the Triumph Forks. This suggests that TMC is after TWW.


Also, a large portion of the enemies and items in TMC are the same as those from TWW, strongly hinting at a post TWW placement of TMC.


In TMC, Hyrule is depicted as being on a vast sea, as seen in the background of the Palace of Winds:



This greatly supports the post-TWW placement of TMC, seeing as this strongly hints at TMC occuring sometime after the Flood.


And finally, some evidece to support the theory of the Great Deku Tree raising old Hyrule from the depths using trees during the time between TWW and TMC. Take a look at the map of TMC:



Notice the large amount of trees all over Hyrule. There are a considerably larger amount than there were in OoT. Notice that the biggest group of trees (Minish Woods) is in the same place as the Forest Haven, and that the trees thin out from there on. This is supportive of the theory that the Great Deku Tree raised Hyrule, and supports a post-TWW placement of TMC.


In summary, this is the evidence against a pre-OoT placement of TMC:

• People called humans rather than Hylians.
• Hyrule only very recently been unified for the first time in OoT, preventing TMC from coming before it.
• Very different races in OoT and TMC.
• Process of evolution works with TWW-TMC, but not with TMC-OoT.
• Knowledge of the Triforce is against TMC-OoT.
• Enemies and items near identical to TWW, and very different from OoT.
• Hyrule is an island on a vast sea in TMC, which is unlikely to be so if TMC is pre-Flood.

There is a lot going for a post-TWW placement of TMC, and from my experiences of debating with people that believe TMC to be before OoT, there isn't that much evidence for that placement, and what evidence their is is questionable and open for interpretation. Hopefully this article will give you some new thoughts about where to place TMC in your timeline.

|Sentient|

Very well-done, Ziggy, so far as your coverage of a number of the relevant facts in The Minish Cap. However, I'm still not so convinced that Minish Cap indicates any sort of timeline placement within itself at all, even given your evidence, and here's why:


You said: People called humans rather than Hylians.

At the time of the release of Minish Cap, it marked the only game in which references to humankind as opposed to Hylians, Hyrulians, etc. existed on any sort of large scale. So, at the time, this was an admissible argument; the Hylians had inherited the tales of the creation and of the Triforce, so it would be unreasonable to say that "humans" preceded the "Hylians", as placing Minish Cap first would imply.

However, Twilight Princess also liberally employs the use of this term as applied to Hyliakind, so this point has essentially evaporated into the ether. Hylians are humans, and are referred to as humans, so the use of the term "human" doesn't mean Minish Cap comes after an event such as the flood, or even after Ocarina of Time.


You said: Hyrule only very recently been unified for the first time in OoT, preventing TMC from coming before it.

Do we know that Hyrule had been united for the first time in Ocarina? Isn't it conceivable that it had been united before, especially since all the sages seem to be subordinate to the Hyrulian Princess, and that groups such as the Zoras have been "longtime allies" of the royal family? Doesn't the very existence of a royal family of Hyrule (before Ocarina, I might add) suggest some sort of unity in and of itself?


You said: Very different races in OoT and TMC.

Ocarina of Time: Hylians/humans, Zoras, Gorons, Gerudo, Sheikah, Kokiri
The Minish Cap: Humans/hylians?, Gorons, Picori/Minish, Wind Tribe

I really don't see that much of a difference. The Minish, being thought of as fairy tales by the time of Minish Cap anyway, likely passed out of knowledge entirely (which you have happening no matter how you slice it), and the wind tribe is obviously absent from Hyrule proper, since they dwell in the heavens (although perhaps PH will feature them).


You said: Process of evolution works with TWW-TMC, but not with TMC-OoT.

Graphic presentation of enemies can change for reasons entirely unrelated to story, as a number of people are so intent on reminding me relentlessly. Your best bet to this end is to focus on the Octoroks, who differ in their abilities as well as their appearance, although, to be quite honest, Big Octo could travel on land in Ocarina, so I imagine the other Octoroks were able to as well, albeit, not exclusively, as the Minish Cap Octos do.


You said: Knowledge of the Triforce is against TMC-OoT.

Depends. How many people talk openly about the Triforce in Ocarina of Time? Not many, and most of those who do only do so because the unfolding events involve the Triforce. This is probably the only reason reference to it doesn't appear in Minish Cap, much less any other game that doesn't feature Triforce references.


You said: Enemies and items near identical to TWW, and very different from OoT.

This is one of the more compelling points, but not especially remarkable (especially since no actual remarks to this end are made within any game, which would be expected if this were to have any meaning). I will give that Roc's items, Magic Canes/Rods, and the Pegasus Boots appear mostly in the 2D games, but this could be for gameplay reasons. Those items would not be as practically-applied in 3D.


You said: Hyrule is an island on a vast sea in TMC, which is unlikely to be so if TMC is pre-Flood.

Are you suggesting that there was not an ocean prior to the flood?


Yes, I'm playing the devil's advocate. It's one of my favorite roles.

I must also say something against the "human" part. If you look closely at the sprites of the characters in TWW (Or zoom in with an emulator if you have one on your PC) you'd see that they all have pointy ears. And as we know from TWW normal humans don't have pointy ears while Hylians do.

Oh and one more small thing. The King of Hyrule in TMC bears a striking resemblance to the King of Red Lions, no? I'm not sure if they could possibly be the same person as I think their names are different (I don't remember their names by heart) but if the are the same then it would definitely place TMC long before TWW, no?

The Hyrulian Kings would likely resemble each other as Zelda's incarnations do. None of the three kings we've seen are the same as one another. We have Daphnes Nohansen, Daltus and Gustaf - three different men.

By no means a bad theory, Sentient. Lex does have a tendency to poke a lot of holes, but a lot of what you said is plausable - the only major difficulty I have is with the Human/Hylian differentiation, for obvious reasons. You've taken many of the points raised in previous discussions and weaved them together neatly. Nice usage of imagery as well. Good effort.

Unfortunately though, I would have to say that this probably isn't the best choice for the first front page article. Maybe later on, but not the first.

Yes, I’m very compelled by this article, as it brings up a lot of points, and yet the points could be interpreted many ways which could have the tendency to backfire. This includes the many holes that Lex pointed out. You may not have solid facts to match the probable placement, but this placement probably has more well-founded inferences and interpretations than the alternative, of which I think you should emphasize more. There are several interpretations that you have omitted that I think need more attention. You can figure in such things like
-The Light Force as the Triforce of Wisdom
-Similarities or connections between the Four Sword and Master Sword
-The previous presence of Ganon as suggested by the prologue(darkness, and pig monster, though it being a moblin is most probable, other indications such as in the manga, suggest the monsters had a leader and the main threat was a singular monster)
-You could also use the similar graphic/art styles to your advantage here.

Since your aim is to make the best argument for a post-WW placement you should use all these points and more to your advantage in your article, not just the ones you personally agree with. It would also help to rewrite some of these arguments from a more interpretive standpoint and as a whole for the article for more organization and clarity(I recognize some of these statements as copied and pasted). The holes in your points are clearer when you use such a matter-of-fact tone. Try to show in your writing that you possess humility and the vigilance of alternate interpretations. If you’d like some more info on some interpretations I’ve made, such as those I listed, PM me and I’ll send you my arguments for post-WW originally from gamefaqs.