View Single Post
) [ ]
02-24-2006, 10:36 AM
Join Date: Apr 2004
Originally Posted by
Never refer to abortion as murder. Murder, by definition, is malicious. So calling it murder is circular reasoning, because your argument is assumed by the premises. I don't want to hear, "I think abortion is wrong because it's murder." You can argue that it's killing, but unless everyone agrees that it's malicious, you can't call it murder.
Determining that a developing fetus is not fit to live is malicious. Killing innocent children is ALWAYS malicious, since malice is defined as "The intent, without just cause or reason, to commit a wrongful act that will result in harm to another" (dictionary.com). There is never a just cause for killing a child.
Besides, murder is
defined as premeditated manslaughter, not malicious manslaughter.
Also, if you say it's wrong because an embryo is a living human, you need to back that up.
Those who are for human embryonic stem cell research have done that for us. They propose that we take
stem cells from these embryos. We can only do so if they are, indeed, human.
Calling it murder makes it sound worse than it actually is.
Calling it murder is toning it down from what is actually is--the killing of a
completely defenseless human organism
. It is
worse than murder
, because it is
necessary, and does not directly secure
If we kill a caterpillar, we're not killing a butterfly.
If you kill a butterfly, you are killing a caterpillar.
You're pushing to have rape victims bear yet another burden.
The burden is already theirs, whether anyone likes it or not. If an infant child was left on your doorstep, would you kill it because it could be a "burden?" Of course not--such a thing is preposterous.
I don't agree that it is a child, and I would like to see your support for that claim.
How does nothing that is, as you say "not human" become human? Can a dog become a human? Can a bacteria become a human? Can a bird become human? Of course not--again, such a thing is preposterous. If you can provide evidence as to how something that is "not human" can become human, then your argument that embryos and fetuses are "not human"
be legitimate. No one has as of yet provided such evidence, and so abortion cannot even be logically legitmate, since to say that a fetus is "not human" would require it.
Also, it wouldn't be called "abortion" if it didn't "abort" anything. Something cannot grow if it is not alive. Abortion terminates the life, growth, and development of the human fetus. One of the definitions is "to stop the progress of." This is very similar to one of the definitions for "kill" (and, curiously, of "murder")--"to put an end to."
Originally Posted by
Hostius of Angelus
So technically it is not murder, because A) it isn't unlawful, and B) it isn't usually malicious.
If what we consider to be murder now were to become "lawful," then it wouldn't be murder anymore, according to that definition. One dictionary definition that supports a side of an argument is not the only definition that is legit.
Murder: "To kill brutally or inhumanely."
This is the most common method of abortion during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. General or local anaesthesia is given to the mother and her cervix is quickly dilated. A suction curette (hollow tube with a knife-edged tip) is inserted into the womb. This instrument is then connected to a vacuum machine by a transparent tube. The vacuum suction, 29 times more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner, tears the fetus and placenta into small pieces which are sucked through the tube into a bottle and discarded.
Dilation and Curettage (D&C)
This method is similar to the suction method with the added insertion of a hook shaped knife (curette) which cuts the baby into pieces. The pieces are scraped out through the cervix and discarded
Dilation and Evacuation (D&E)
This method is used up to 18 weeks' gestation. Instead of the loop-shaped knife used in D&C abortions, a pair of forceps is inserted into the womb to grasp part of the fetus. The teeth of the forceps twist and tear the bones of the unborn child. This process is repeated until the fetus is totally dismembered and removed. Usually the spine must be snapped and the skull crushed in order to remove them.
Salt Poisoning (Saline Injection)
Used after 16 weeks (four months) when enough fluid has accumulated. A long needle injects a strong salt solution through the mother's abdomen into the baby's sac. The baby swallows this fluid and is poisoned by it. It also acts as a corrosive, burning off the outer layer of skin. It normally takes somewhat over an hour for the baby to die from this. Within 24 hours, labor will usually set in and the mother will give birth to a dead or dying baby. (There have been many cases of these babies being born alive. They are usually left unattended to die. However, a few have survived and later been adopted.)
Prostaglandin Chemical Abortion
This form of abortion uses chemicals developed by the Upjohn Pharmaceutical Co. which cause the uterus to contract intensely, pushing out the developing baby. The contractions are more violent than normal, natural contractions, so the unborn baby is frequently killed by them -- some have even been decapitated. Many, however, have also been born alive.
Used mainly in the last three months of pregnancy, the womb is entered by surgery through the wall of the abdomen. The technique is similar to a Caesarean delivery, except that the umbilical cord is usually cut while the baby is still in the womb, thus cutting off his oxygen supply and causing him to suffocate. Sometimes the baby is removed alive and simply left in a corner to die of neglect or exposure.
Five steps to a partial birth abortion
1) Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby's legs with forceps.
2) The baby's leg is pulled out into the birth canal.
3) The abortionist delivers the baby's entire body, except for the head
4) The abortionist jams scissors into the baby's skull. The scissors are then opened to enlarge the skull.
5) The scissors are removed and a suction catheter is inserted. The child's brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The dead baby is then removed.
LionHarted: Tell me how any of these procedures are
--whether the fetuses are "human" or not is irrelevant, since we have laws protecting the humane killing of animals.
These are the most common abortion procedures, although poisoning is also often used. To say that the fetus is not alive is utterly incorrect, since if it is not alive, how does it die from poison. To say that it is not being killed is even more incorrect, since without being killed, it cannot be aborted. Any abortion method is inhumane; whether the fetus is human or not does not matter--by definition, it is murder. Anyone who supports abortion knowing how these procedures work utterly disgusts me. Anyone who would say that I am wrong in saying this ought to view the procedures being done firsthand, and then tell me if they think the same.
View Public Profile
Visit LegendofLex's homepage!
Find all posts by LegendofLex