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Old 10-28-2009, 11:51 AM
Kastanj Kastanj is a male Sweden Kastanj is offline
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Re: Zelda - A series of "Crucibles"?

Wonderful post you made there.
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Originally Posted by Julian View Post
I'd honestly much rather them putting out new IPs making use of those ideas while perfecting the content of games whose gameplay foundations are already laid.
Absolutely. A developer should innovate (creating a new sort of quality) as well as just stuff more content into games (more quantity of the same quality) that already have an attractive quality. If you already have good mechanics and a nice "feel" to the interaction, don't reinvent the wheel. Nintendo has many franchises and should try and see what approach suits which franchise, but they seem to be lost in another mode of thinking.

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Originally Posted by Julian View Post
However, if we didn't have Nintendo trying to push things forward, we'd be left an almost endless stream of Uncharted-like games: They made a formula nearly perfect (...) (It still annoys me that Call of Juarezoun in Blood did cover better than most cover-based games and that there's NO platforming in Uncharted as much as mini cinematics triggered by a useless jump button) (...) Other than presentation, graphics and voice-acting, EVERY gameplay element of those 2 great games lead to some deja vu, while main Nintendo games tend to offer something minimally novel at least.
Way to take the macro perspective! I agree that Uncharted - while looking sexier than God's girlfriend - simply can't escape the cons of cinematographic gaming even as it perfects it. Changing the mechanics and the input might be the only way to break out and bring something new.

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Originally Posted by Julian View Post
On the 3D Zelda cases, I'd say the only one that offered nothing new to the table was TP. If you'll introduce a wolf character that's LESS fun to use than the regular Link and less rewarding, don't bother (...) Ocarina of Time made 3D combat do-able and introduced an in-game, fully playable instrument (...) Majora's Mask introduced a unique, cyclical gameplay, alongside FUN alternatives to Link (...) Wind Waker shifted Zelda's sense of humour back to Link's Awakening charm and proved that cel-shaded CAN be beautiful and natural (...) Besides, it presented a REALLY different battle system from what we were used to and an interesting mechanic, that was the King of the Red Lions. Long story short, I like how they focus on gameplay and style changes, but they sure as hell could try to ally that with content and depth.
Bolded for truth. However, while you approved of MM's three-day mechanic, many people found it too overbearing to aid enjoyment of the game. Furthermore, WW's combat wasn't enough of a step forward to be as effective as the series needs, and the sailing put a lot of people off. WW didn't get Link's movement in the overworld right either, many would say.

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Originally Posted by Julian View Post
Besides, I really believe the lack of "stuff" on TP's and Ocarina's overworld was mainly due to hardware restrictions. If you look at it, OoT presented HUGE draw distance for the console's power. Twilight Princess also offered a gigantic overworld, and they knew they had to sacrifice content in order to achieve sheer size.
I never considered that aspect before. I think that might be a bigger problem than people expect.

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Originally Posted by Julian View Post
They were a company that made controlled experiences seeing their entire philosophy go gown the drain as games got bigger and blander. See GTA. You may argue there's a lot going on there, but honestly, San Andreas. Looked like s*** and had so much NOTHING it almost hurt. Yet, it made way more success than Wind Waker. People had forsaken Zelda and they were trying to adpat it to a "bigger, more epic, louder"-hungry audience. See the nods to Lord of the Rings in the game's first trailer. You had freaking Balrog and Shelob there, man.
Now that you mention it, TP's trailer really had some LotR tang to it. Actually, many would say that the first Zelda is a lot more free-roaming than TP (which was very controlled). Both OoT and MM were not completely linear either, or rather they were linear but there were new branches to discover the higher you climbed. TP didn't really please that many people in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Julian View Post
I actually think they'll be under a lot less stress this time around, being able to offer a game that focus on what THEY want to do. And this philosophy always led to better results when it comes to nintendo. Letting them do their own thing tends to lead to great experiences. Except for Star Fox DS. That was a cough-up of an old idea they just had to get out in the open. Pretty mediocre game, by the way.
The thing is that Nintendo doesn't always want the same thing as its customers! Malstrom uses the examples of SMG 2, 3D Mario on the DS, Starfox losing its focus from SF 64 and the Train mechanic for ST to show that Nintendo has a tendency to create some little novelty they are all agog over and then try to push it on consumers, who really just want more stuff to do. Wii Music is another exhibit: Miyamoto was excited over User-generated content, and tried to push it on us even though we want content made by skilled developers. He can be a "cocky little freak", to quote Starfox 64. However, I agree fully that Star Fox Command was the nadir, nay, the very undoing of the concept "fun".

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Originally Posted by Julian View Post
Besides, the Mario example put by Eurogamer and Malstrom isn't the best one. Super Mario galaxy is a content-full game and the torch-lighting was probably more of a nod than anything else, as much as I agree with pretty much he posted back there.
SMG was menu-laden , a bit sterile and surprisingly linear. I thought both SM 64 and SMS were better 3D Marios and SMG 2 does not imbue me with optimism.

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Originally Posted by Julian View Post
@Double A: Agreed, if anything, Wii Motion Plus should be limited to minigames(FISHING! PLEASE! 1:1 FISHING!) and item usage. Hit detection would be too messy if it was implemented on swordfighting. Besides, the need for recalibration would be absurd, for you'll undoubtedly start waving your arms frantically at some point, lending to the controller not having any idea as to where it is.
I've heard the swordfightan in Wii Sports Resort is choice, so it could work in ZWii. Also, don't forget about Red Steel 2: (Electric Boogaloo)
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Last Edited by Kastanj; 10-28-2009 at 12:23 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote