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Old 05-22-2008, 06:25 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: A Link to the Past: Does translation matter?

Firstly, this manual was written in 1991 to describe the Creation of Hyrule, wars between the people over the Sacred Realm and the Triforce, the seizure of the Triforce by Ganondorf, and the Imprisoning War. Since 1991, these events have appeared and been described in other games, namely OoT, in a more updated fashion. For example, the more ambiguous "gods of power, wisdom, and courage" became "goddesses." Thus, OoT's depiction of events can be assumed to be more correct than ALttP's depiction, when they conflict or when OoT offers details that do not appear in ALttP. The same is true of TWW with respect to OoT, et cetera and so on.

The manual story in its entirety can be derived from the plot of OoT, thus the manual can be considered obsolete. If TWW wants to introduce the idea of a new kingdom and the original ALttP manual does not account for it, then TWW's picture trumps ALttP's picture. Obviously a New Hyrule had not been conceived at the time of the making of ALttP, so ALttP's manual cannot be expected to account for it.

Secondly, there is nothing in the Creation dialogue to suggest that it was written at the time of ALttP. It is written in retrospect of the Creation, describing the descendants of the Hylians, but "descendants of the Hylians" could appear any time after the Hylians first appear. The way this manual story is constructed, however, it was most likely written after the Imprisoning War, although we cannot say when this would have happened, beyond that.

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Originally Posted by Cukeman View Post
It says here that this Zelda game (ALTTP) is set in the land of Hyrule. Then the text goes on to reveal the history of this same land (Hyrule) that the three goddesses created. We know from the Deku Tree's tale that OOT Hyrule is the Hyrule created by the goddesses (a "New Hyrule" would not be the same land that was created before the Triforce). We can infer from this that ALTTP Hyrule is one and the same as OOT Hyrule. This is where the OOT -> WW -> ALTTP theory starts to break down.
1) The goddesses created the world, not just Hyrule. If the game is telling Hyrule's history, and takes place in a "New Hyrule," then the history of the "Old Hyrule" is relevant. Since most "New Hyrule" theorists believe that "New Hyrule" is constructed precisely where "Old Hyrule" once stood, there would certainly be Hylian relics there.

2) TP reveals that it is more accurate to say that the Hylians created Hyrule, and more accurate still to say that the Oocca created it.

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I am open to the slim possibility that a post-WW wish on the Triforce can restore Old Hyrule, but the idea that ALTTP is in a "New Hyrule" seems absurd to me. Especially considering the monuments written in the ancient language decoded by the "Book of Mudora" (an item Link gets in ALTTP).
This could easily be referring to the language that is beginning to fade away in FSA rather than the language spoken by the peoples of OoT.

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As well as how the Master Sword's placement in ALTTP matches that of TP. The Lost Woods in ALTTP = the Sacred Grove in TP (notice that the Sacred Grove's maze area plays the Lost Woods theme music). Further, in TP the Master Sword is in the Pedestal of Time, inside the ruins of the Temple of Time. By the time of ALTTP all that remains of the Temple of Time is the Pedestal in the clearing, and of course, the Master Sword. Other ties linking TP to ALTTP are details of Hyrule Castle, the throne, the sewers underneath the castle, and the ability to walk on the castle walls.
Indeed.

However, I should point out that:

1) There's no reason to believe that the Pedestal of Time should not exist in the Adult Timeline.
2) The Master Sword does not require three crests to remove it in TP.
3) Hyrule Castle in TP is identical to Hyrule Castle in TWW, even though they are on different timelines and Hyrule Castle from OoT is destroyed in the Adult Timeline. Ergo, the castles being similar has little weight, since all Hyrule Castles are similar.

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Note that this is present-tense "Hyrule...is[not was] an area..." this means that the Hyrule seen in ALTTP is where the relics have been left.
1) The Hyrule seen in ALttP may very well be the "same" Hyrule seen in OoT, just after flooding and with a new society/kingdom.
2) This could simply be referring to the new land called Hyrule, where Hylian relics have been left (Hylian descendants are said in the ALttP manual to have "spread to all parts of the world" - the flood is, to date, the only canonical explanation for this).

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This spilling of blood brings to mind the great battle mentioned in TP: "For ages, the people lived at ease, content in mind and body...But soon, word of the Sacred Realm spread through Hyrule, and a great battle ensued..."
Which also brings to mind the "fierce wars" during "Hyrule's bloody history of greed and hatred" before OoT. In fact, I would say that the "great battle" and the "fierce wars" are precisely the same, since after both the Sheikah are said to have died out.

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In OOT Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm by chance because Link pulled the Master Sword, in other words LINK opened the entrance. This passage said that the thieves opened it, not Link. Also note, it wasn't just the leader, but the group that is credited with opening it.
Link removed the "final key" on the Sacred Realm and opened the Door of Time, but we do not know what precisely this means with respect to the entrance to the Sacred Realm itself.

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We see the changing of eye color in the cut-scene in TP where the people (represented by Link and Ilia) battle over the Sacred Realm.
We know for a fact that the Twili survived that battle, however, whereas Ganondorf killed all his followers.

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Note the wording "race of evil thieves", the Gerudo consider themselves to be "noble thieves".
In FSA.

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As Nabooru says: " I'm Nabooru of the Gerudo. I'm a lone wolf thief. But don't get me wrong! Though we're both thieves, I'm completely different from Ganondorf. With his followers, he stole from women and children, and he even killed people!"
Nabooru is an exception, not the rule.

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And the Gerudo aren't particularly evil, in FSA it is Ganondorf who broke thier laws
FSA =/= OoT.

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Although some claim that the Gerudo in OOT are fiercer than those in FSA why is it that they are staying in the desert, and not sharing Ganondorf's success?
Because Ganondorf is a sick bastard and doesn't share success with anyone.

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I think that the term "evil thieves" more accurately describes the thieves who inhabit ALTTP's Lost Woods, FSA's Kakariko Village, and ALTTP's Thieves Town (the Dark World version of Kakariko Village). My thought is that perhaps the original Ganondorf may have been one of THESE thieves, then starred in TLOZ, and then been reborn as a Gerudo for OOT.
They're not a race of evil thieves, however, they're just evil thieves.

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This certainly doesn't mesh with OOT. If OOT is the Seal War, then the Sages would have known exactly where the Master Sword was (in the Temple of Time).
It wasn't in the Temple of Time, though.

And the sage descendants know exactly where the Master Sword is in ALttP, anyway.

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This TRULY cannot be OOT. Ganon was sealed in the evil realm by Link and the Seven Sages. No Knights were present.
That's because the knights died when Ganon attacked the castle, which is why we don't see any of them in the Adult future.

Let's break down the narrative, though.

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"However, the situation was urgent, and Ganon's malice was enclosing on the royal palace."
Yes; Ganon's malice encloses on the palace before Link appears.

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"Using the most of their powers, the Sages and Knights threw open a heroic battle with the evil one."
This actually conflicts, but it should be noted that the word for "battle" can also mean "war" or "struggle," so this isn't necessarily referring to a single armed struggle.

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"The Knights had valiantly used their bodies as shields during the fierce attack, and although they unfortunately perished when their strength had exhausted"
This is why they're all dead in the future, and why there are bones scattered about the road to Ganon's Tower.

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"this had given the Sages time to complete their Seal."
Which OoT depicts as giving Zelda a chance to escape Ganon's clutches in order to rally Link to her cause and rescue the other sages so that they can complete their seal.

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To make the story short and sweet, Ganon got the Triforce, and was then sealed away until ALTTP, when Agahnim came along to open the Sages' Seal on the Dark World.
Ganon touched the Triforce, used its power to attack Hyrule, causing the sages to seal the Sacred Realm.

This is precisely what the IW narrative says.
This is precisely what happens in OoT.

As for ALttP:

Agahnim is kidnapping maidens descended from the seven sages in order to break the sages' seal so Ganon can rule both Light and Dark Worlds with the Triforce.

Okay, so the IW/OoT flows into ALttP great when the two main plots are by themselves, ignoring the inconsistencies like Ganon having the whole Triforce in ALttP and not being able to leave the Dark World after he enters.

However, I would argue that this is precisely why intermission stories like TWW and FSA are necessary for ALttP to exist.

TWW provides a situation in which the Triforce is reunited, which fixes the problem of it being separated. FSA provides a situation in which Ganon is once again sealed, this time never crossing between worlds to our knowledge.

So, while TWW and FSA add things that aren't referenced in the ALttP story to the story of Ganon, they also add those things that were missing from OoT.

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If you put ALTTP on the adult timeline, Ganon gets the Triforce (just ToP if you replace the Seal War details with OOT), the Seal War happens, and then he only has the ToP in WW, which he loses, is petrified under the sea with the Master Sword, and then somehow has the complete Triforce in ALTTP in what sure looks like Old Hyrule and the Master Sword is no longer under the ocean...?
He only has the Triforce of Power in OoT, which the game writer has himself stated was designed to be the IW. Ergo, Ganon only has the ToP in the IW, until another scenario is shown to us.

As for the Master Sword, TMC and PH show us that sacred blades can be reforged...not that OoS/OoA don't give us an alternate origin for the Master Sword anyway (reforged/sharpened/given by the Zoras, the first two follow the sacred blade being reforged thing, and the second one could very well explain how the Master Sword ceased to be under the waves). Of course, the Salvage Corps. from TWW are searching for treasure at the bottom of the ocean, which could allow the Master Sword to be found anyway.

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(Not to mention that he somehow escaped the FS into the Light World, entered the Dark World, got the Triforce, and somehow the FS was moved to the Dark World pyramid!)
The Maidens place a seal on the FS at the end of FSA that looks precisely like the seal shown as being cast on Ganon in an old piece of official art for ALttP. I'd say they sealed the FS in the Dark World so evil dudes would stop escaping from it.

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(The game limits the Seal War to "Three or four generations ago" 60-120 years)
This is a translation error.

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Instead, I think that only the Game Boy Advance versions of ALTTP are canon.
1) First off, Ganondorf has been completely written out of the manual (purposefully removed).
2) There is still a great battle.
3) The Sages still seal some sort of evil in the Sacred Realm (puposefully vague).
All of this removes your principal argument against OoT=IW, that being that Ganon being sealed in the IW matters to ALttP.

Clearly, based on your evidence, the only thing that matters is the seal on the Sacred Realm and the battle. If ALttP is in the Adult Timeline, this happens to work perfectly if the battle is OoT.
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